Ammo Shortage and Allied Troops.

[Tim Niesen]

Hello Folks, I am redesigning an Old ASL scenario, Battle for Rome, No 57, with the idea of American paratroopers aiding against the German insurgency. My initial question is since the Italian troops suffer from Ammo shortages might the American paratroopers supply the Elite Itslian 447 with help if they suffer from a 12 result resulting in a reduction in status to a 346? Perhaps their ammo and light weapons were not interchangeable, and this action is clearly illogical if not impossible. If it would be possible, it likely would be limited to one donation of weapons per squad per game, which would require recording the American squad and its identification letter. Please tell me if this is a foolish idea! I designed this scenario about ten years ago and playtested the scenario with my friend Steve twice. I added three half tracks to the German side for play balance, one of which was an HMG haltrack. Now in the latest version I am going to replace the HMG halftrack with two late model German armored cars. Also adding more three Italian civilian squads (336s with 3ELR), as well as a 60mm American off board OBA. I exchanged commucatuons with the Italian ASL expert on this battle, but I do not remember his name, but he was prominent in VASAL area of this Forum. He told me about an Italian nun who helped rally the civilians against the German invaders. Could he contact me again? I have a proposal for the nun to act like a non Russian commisar, but without any combat role except for morale and rally. Don Carlucci had painted all the GHQ minature ASL figures for this scenario, but this plan was thwarted by the expense of the hexagons from that company. Now we found Pico Armor company which has rolled hexagonal mats at about 1/3 the mats of the GHQ hexagons, and they have the advance of being able to be rolled into carrying cases. We hope to have this game ready by next Historicon in July of 2024. Hopefully, a few experienced ASL players will attend that convention. We hope that large scale ASL will have a different feel, and this scenario already has a unique aspect: stacking being limited to one squad per building hex. How many of you players used the GHQ minatures for ASL? I am aware that the practice never was common.. Tim Niesen

 

[Tim Niesen]

Does anyone know of any monographs on this planned operation? I have only read allusions to the canceled paratroop plan. Certainly captured ammo could have been dropped into Rome,, at least small arms and ammo. Apparently the original American plan involved landing an 57 LL AT unit on the beaches near Rome. Then that aspect was cut out of the plan as unwise and too risky. After that the Allied command hesitated before the final cancelation of the paratrooper drop to aid the Italian Army. Other than the risking the1 destruction of the paratrooper unit itself, it certainly had a certain element of alacrity. And the plan might have at least got half way up from the boot. Salerno would have been far easier with its considerable distraction to the German Army. Tim

 

[Tim Niesen]

I noticed a recently printed article published in 2022, by a man named Conner, who concludes that the cancelation of the proposed drop of the 82nd into Rome saved the unit from certain destruction. The article notes that supplies were to be sent by sea up the Tiber River. Tim

 

[Tim Niesen]

Because of the information about the ammo (the article does not say what Ammo, but it seems likely that the Ammo was captured Italian stocks from Sicily or North Africa.) Therefore, I am thinking of allowing the six Italian trucks, carrying the two reinforcement groups, one Italian 347s and the other American 747s, to also carry crates of infantry ammo and HMG/MMG ammo. Likely these would be labeled as such types of ammo and could only restore or prevent ammo shortage for those infantry units or machine guns.. What would be the portage cost costs of ammo crates? There should be no relieve for guns ammo shortages, as those shells would be too heavy for infantry to carry. Tim

 

[Tim Niesen]

The rules for ammo vehicles (E10) would seem to have little application for our issue with the replishment of small arms shortage.. It seems that trucks bringing in small arms and ammo for both civilians and regular elite Italian MMC would seem a logical SSR. I considered special ammo for Italian machine guns, but this might be too complicated. Maybe allowing Italian civilian volunteers to transfer ammo to the front line depleted troops from incoming trucks might be a realistic idea. Tim

 

[Robin Reeve]

I considered special ammo for Italian machine guns, but this might be too complicated.

ASL doesn't go into such minutiae.
An SSR that states that Italians suffer from Ammunition Shorage (A19.131) until a special condition is met – even an abstracted Wind DR of a given number – would be rather simple to implement, without losing oneself in overcomplicated details.

Hello Folks, I am redesigning an Old ASL scenario, Battle for Rome, No 57

Was something wrong (or annoying) about it?
FYI it was recently updated and included in Hollow Legions.
Perhaps designing a scenario from scrap could be an easier task: there is no mention in the scenario about US provided weapons.

 

[Tim Niesen]

Robin, This scenario is simply adding the planned drop of 1/3 of the 82nd Division to the existing scenario, and adding increased participation as a conseqence. The recent monograph by a writer named Conner mentioned supplies being landed up the Tiber River. We assume that these were to be captured Italian small arms and ammo from Sicily, as well as American weapons. For the troops of the 82nd. The author is not specific. The German authorities had curtailed the supplies of ammo to the seven Italian divisions in Rome. Armor supplies but not small arms and ammo seem unlikely to have been sent up the Tiber River. For an example, as Don 1 has pointed out, the American 60mm motars were quite effective but supplies of their shells were often running out.due to their incredible rate of fire. I have enlisted Albert Nofi to act as a consultant, for he comes and lectures at Historicon. Somr of us remember his great articles about the Italian Army in the old issues of S&T? Tim

 

[Tim Niesen]

Oops, "increased civilian participation" The Italian ASL guru who I corresponded with about ten to twelve years ago stated that this likely would have been the main effect of the paratrooper drop. He also told me that there was a heroic Italian nun who rallied the population against the usurping German Army. We think that the plan may have been worthwhile if the allies had been able to drluver weapons to stiffen the backbone of the Italian Army. Tim

 

[Yuri0352]

and this scenario already has a unique aspect: stacking being limited to one squad per building hex.

That's the 'unique aspect'?
As opposed to the non-Russian Commissar Nun? How does she Casualty Reduce the low quality units when they fail to rally? Does she smack them with a ruler or that long wooden pointer with the black rubber tip?

 

[Robin Reeve]

The main question to ask oneself, when thinking of a historical aspect of a given situation, is what was its impact on the battle?
The second one would be how to portray it efficiently in the most simple way.
In this case, when and how did the use of US gear by the Italians make a difference ?
Could a short SSR - as short as saying that stacking in buildings is limited to one squad-equivalent - cover that effect ?

 

[Psycho]

That's the 'unique aspect'?
As opposed to the non-Russian Commissar Nun? How does she Casualty Reduce the low quality units when they fail to rally? Does she smack them with a ruler or that long wooden pointer with the black rubber tip?

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/eaa4d322-d7e6-4f6e-8f00-713eb27157cc

 

[Old Noob]

Elwood Blues - "Jake, the Sister wants to see you."

 

[Tim Niesen]

Well, the nun was a historical figure. She existed. She rallied the Italian civilians in the battle. I plan if she appears, and she cannnot be everywhere, is for her to increase the morale of those around her. She will not make those around her shoot better like a minus leader. Maybe she has a one in ten chance of an appearance. The good news is the Pico Armor company may have already made these classic urban ASL mspboards for others. Tim

 

[Tim Niesen]

As far as the ammo question, I assume that this is captured Italian ammo from Sicily or North Africa. The key to the resistance by the seven Italian divisions in Rome...the Rome garrison would have been to supply them with at least small arms ammo. The supplies planned to be landed up the Tiber River likely included such ammo. As far as making an entirely new game, this is beyond my desire and likely skills, and at the moment simply a fun large scale game at Historicon is my goal. In general, I think people players underestimate the capacity of the Italian Army to wage war, if propertly lead and supplied. The latter was the main issue for the Itslian troops in Russia. Tim