Board 3I1 entry cost from offboard...

[von Marwitz]

This hex has probably driven generations of ASLers nuts - add me to the list.


ASL195 Rocket's Red Glare specifies this hex as an entry hex for both infantry and a Fully Tracked AFV. This AFV is open topped.

So, first Infantry entering from offboard:

a) I reckon bypass is just normal?
b) What is the cost for Infantry entering this hex via the road hexside into the building?
c) What is the cost for Infantry entering this hex NOT using the road into the building?

Next, what about the Fully Tracked Open Topped AFV?

d) I reckon bypass is just normal (provided there would be enough space to allow it)?
e) What would be the cost for the AFV to enter the hex via the road?
f) Can it enter the hex not using bypass at all? Being OT, it cannot enter the building but it could enter woods.
g) Is it considered entering a building when entering via the road at all?
h) Provided it could enter via the road, where is the OT AFV considered to be? In the Woods? In the Building? At what TEM?
i) Provided it is IN the hex and would want to exit not using Bypass - would it need to take a Bog Check? Create a Trailbreak upon exit?

This really has me confused.


von Marwitz

 

[dur]

a) Bypass would be normal across the open ground hexsides and 2MF across the woods hexsides. cf. A4.31
b) 1MF. cf. A4.132 (clarified in the example)
c) 4MF cf. A4.31 exception. I think this is the only example we have of different terrain types in the same hex having cumulative MF costs. I don't think it's stated explicitly anywhere in the rules.
d) I would think bypass through the OG hexsides would function normally. The woods hexsides are where it gets hairy. A vehicle would have to spend all of its MF to enter one of the woods hexsides where it would need to remain in motion.
e) I don't think this particular situation is covered at all in the rules.
f) Again, I'm not sure this situation is explicitly covered.

Actually, I think the rest of these are pretty ambiguous. The only time a road affects MP costs or the ability to enter a hex are roads leading into Factory Locations. I'm not sure that answers to all of those situations exist.

 

[jrv]

At least for the depiction you show, neither infantry nor vehicles can bypass on the left (J?) side. The building touches the hexside.

Infantry: cost is one MF via road, four MF without the road, or bypass cost (two MF).

Vehicle cannot enter without bypass, using the road or not, because an open-topped vehicle may not enter a building. It would need to take a bog check to bypass. Trailbreaks are not created in bypass.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

At least for the depiction you show, neither infantry nor vehicles can bypass on the left (J?) side. The building touches the hexside.

Infantry: cost is one MF via road, four MF without the road, or bypass cost (two MF).

Vehicle cannot enter without bypass, using the road or not, because an open-topped vehicle may not enter a building. It would need to take a bog check to bypass. Trailbreaks are not created in bypass.

JR

The VASL board does look like the building touching the hexside, but if one zooms in to 500%, one might say that it just doesn't and thus at least allowing bypass for Infantry. The SK version of the board also seems to have just a hint of green between the building and the hexside, I think.

Yet, when considering that ASL195 is based on ancient G6 when only the mounted boards were available, then things look different: On the old mounted board 3, the J0/I1 hexside is clearly bypassable. So at least in the G6 version of the scenario, specifiying 3I1 specifically as an entry hex for the AFV does make sense.

I venture to propose the notion that in the re-release as ASL195, this detail has been overlooked. If the OT AFV cannot enter 3I1 in a non-bypass manner (which would be impossible as per the SK-version and VASL version of board 3), then it would make no sense to still specifically name 3I1 as an entry hex for it in ASL195.

So *probably* the intention would be to treat the I1/J0 hexside as bypassable for the AFV even for ASL195, which might be relevant for the scenario, as otherwise, the M36 tankdestroyer can *only* enter via Y1. Definitely a point to go over with your opponent prior to play IMHO.

Infantry:
1MF for the road is slick! I would have missed the "double" bypass cost of the EXC of A4.31...

Vehicle:
Why would it need to pass a Bog Check to bypass? I don't understand that.


von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

Vehicle:
Why would it need to pass a Bog Check to bypass?

Because the bypass part of the hex on the H0 side is woods. Even if the J0 is bypassable by Infantry it is definitely not by vehicles unless you don't play counter thickness per D2.3 and/or you are just playing that it is.

JR

 

[jrv]

The VASL board does look like the building touching the hexside, but if one zooms in to 500%, one might say that it just doesn't and thus at least allowing bypass for Infantry

Below is the image blown up in gimp. If one includes the darker green shadow around the building (and I always include shadows) it definitely touches. Even without the shadow the corner of the building touches the hexside corner-to-corner. I say on the vasl map the building touches the hexside.



JR

 

[semenza]

What I think is that hex should simply be erratasized (word?) regardless of any small effect it might have on a couple of scenarios. Make it woods or building. Whichever, with the terrain depiction for woods or building removed by errata. And no such hex should ever be created again.

 

[Eagle4ty]

How about the woods & brush hexes? One can't bypass any other type of terrain in a hex than woods or buildings, yet I'll venture to say many will bypass the woods depiction paying the appropriate cost for either OG or Brush or modifying a shot thru the hex as shown by the terrain otherwise shown in the hex should it not be traced into the obstacle terrain. I have yet to run across anyone that pays the brush costs when they bypass along an OG side of the woods in such a hex (I think that is what is supposed to happen) and only grudgingly accept a bypass at OG cost should you BP along a hexside crossed by Brush depiction (what some intimate is the intent).

 

[Robin Reeve]

What I think is that hex should simply be erratasized (word?) regardless of any small effect it might have on a couple of scenarios. Make it woods or building. Whichever, with the terrain depiction for woods or building removed by errata. And no such hex should ever be created again.

No such hex has been created again.
It is a legacy from 1976 Squad Leader.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I have yet to run across anyone that pays the brush costs when they bypass along an OG side of the woods in such a hex (I think that is what is supposed to happen) and only grudgingly accept a bypass at OG cost should you BP along a hexside crossed by Brush depiction (what some intimate is the intent).

Why should one pay brush bypass cost when bypassing along an Open Ground hexside? Am I missing something?

 

[Eagle4ty]

Why should one pay brush bypass cost when bypassing along an Open Ground hexside? Am I missing something?

Because one can only Bypass Woods or Buildings. Just because Brush/Bamboo also exists (for LOS or otherwise) within the hex doesn't mean you may bypass it also. This is clearly backed up by disallowing Bypass of a Woods in a Woods-Gully hex, even if one would wish to pay double the COT for/within the Gully; In this case Bypass is disallowed entirely (There is of course no such Woods-Brush hex by deffinition, so we're left to figure it out). There have been numerous questions on LOS through such woods hexes that also include Brush depictions to assure us that indeed, the Brush does exist in the hex and since it is not a Bypass-able terrain feature, one must pay the MF/MP penalty for moving through the Brush in Bypass of a woods containing a Brush depictions whether it is along a Brush or Open ground hexside, or come to the position that indeed the Brush does not exist at all and its depiction within the hex is a figment of our imagination for both movement and LOS.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

IMO, you would not be bypassing brush, since such hexes are not a combination brush-woods hexes (unlike a combination gully-woods) - they are woods hexes.

B.1 EX:
"The brush symbology of 14H2 extends into H1 and I2 but there should be no doubt that the latter are woods hexes."

 

[Philippe D.]

A4.31 makes it pretty clear to me that bypass may be used along a non-Open Ground hexside, with different cost:

4.31 The movement cost of Bypass becomes that of the other terrain in the Location—usually one MF for Open Ground or two MF to enter higher elevation Open Ground.

"usually" seems to be a good sign that it is not always the case.

The first sentence only mentions "other terrain in the Location" (so one could argue that bypassing a Woods hex that also contains Brush - probably the most common case - along a hexside that is Open Ground, would cost 2MF), but then the EXC in the next sentence clarifies things pretty well:

[EXC: The building in buildingwoods hex 2I9 can be Bypassed along the I9-J9/I9-J8 Open Ground hexsides at a cost of one MF, or along two of its four woods hexsides at a cost of two MF (for moving around the building through the woods), rather than paying the normal entry cost of four MF for the hex.]

So, I don't really see where there is a remaining ambiguity...

 

[Elfego Baca]

Going back to the original topic .....

Besides RRG, hex 3i1 is also an entry point for the US in Gavin Take (T1/ASL181).

IMO, it would make sense to add an SSR to both scenarios allowing bypass movement in 3i1 via the 3j0/j1 hexsides, as was permitted with the older version of Board 3.

 

[von Marwitz]

Because the bypass part of the hex on the H0 side is woods.

Ah! Now I believe I understand what you mean:

3I1 is a Building hex. A Building hex can be bypassed. But to bypass the building, the tank would actually have to move through Woods and thus take a Bog Check.

Is that what you say?

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

Ah! Now I believe I understand what you mean:

3I1 is a Building hex. A Building hex can be bypassed. But to bypass the building, the tank would actually have to move through Woods and thus take a Bog Check.

Is that what you say?

Yes. When a unit bypasses an obstacle, the terrain entered is the terrain on the bypassed hexside. Usually that is open ground but in this case it is woods. All normal rules apply to entering that terrain, plus the doubling of MP costs for bypass.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

Yes. When a unit bypasses an obstacle, the terrain entered is the terrain on the bypassed hexside. Usually that is open ground but in this case it is woods. All normal rules apply to entering that terrain, plus the doubling of MP costs for bypass.

JR

Thanks, JR!

It just did not occur to me that one could bypass THROUGH Woods in this particular case, but of course thinking it through - yes!

A nice illuminating goodie that you unveiled here.

von Marwitz

 

[Ric of The LBC]

IIRC this was fixed with the starter kit board. No?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

IIRC this was fixed with the starter kit board. No?

There was nothing to fix on the old board as far as I remember.

The terrain shifted some on the SK version, IIRC, making some bypass NA that was possible on the old boards.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

There was nothing to fix on the old board as far as I remember.

The terrain shifted some on the SK version, IIRC, making some bypass NA that was possible on the old boards.

My comment is specific to 3I1. They gave clear room around the building for bypass.