Why we need Submarines in ASL ...

Gordon

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From the Wikipedia page of USS Barb:

"Upon completion of her 11th patrol, Barb was sent to the U.S. for a yard overhaul and alterations, which included the installation of 5 in (130 mm) rocket launchers at the Captain's request. Returning to the Pacific, she commenced her 12th and final patrol on 8 June. This patrol was conducted along the coasts of the Sea of Okhotsk. For the first time in U.S. submarine warfare, Barb successfully employed rockets, against the towns of Shari, Hokkaido; Shikuka, Kashiho; and Shiritoru on Karafuto. She also bombarded the town of Kaihyo To with her regular armament, destroying 60 percent of the town. She next landed a party of carefully selected crew members who blew up a railroad train. During the night of 22–23 July 1945 these men went ashore at Karafuto, Japan, and planted an explosive charge that subsequently wrecked a train."
 

Old Noob

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Isn't that covered in Chapter G, as NOBA (Naval Off-Board Artillery)?
 

MAS01

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From the Wikipedia page of USS Barb:

"Upon completion of her 11th patrol, Barb was sent to the U.S. for a yard overhaul and alterations, which included the installation of 5 in (130 mm) rocket launchers at the Captain's request. Returning to the Pacific, she commenced her 12th and final patrol on 8 June. This patrol was conducted along the coasts of the Sea of Okhotsk. For the first time in U.S. submarine warfare, Barb successfully employed rockets, against the towns of Shari, Hokkaido; Shikuka, Kashiho; and Shiritoru on Karafuto. She also bombarded the town of Kaihyo To with her regular armament, destroying 60 percent of the town. She next landed a party of carefully selected crew members who blew up a railroad train. During the night of 22–23 July 1945 these men went ashore at Karafuto, Japan, and planted an explosive charge that subsequently wrecked a train."

The USS Barb was commanded by Eugene Fluckey (Medal of Honor, four Navy Crosses). Between 1/44 and 8/45, he sank 17 ships (96,628 tons), including a carrier and a cruiser.

From Fluckey's Wikipedia page regarding the above incident:

"In one of the stranger incidents in the war, Fluckey sent a landing party ashore to set demolition charges on a coastal railway line, destroying a 16-car train. This was the sole landing by U.S. military forces on the Japanese home islands during World War II. Fluckey ordered that this landing party be composed of crewmen from every division on his submarine. "He chose an eight-man team with no married men to blow up the train," Captain Max Duncan said, who served as Torpedo Officer on the Barb during this time. "He also wanted former Boy Scouts because he thought they could find their way back. They were paddling back to the ship when the train blew up." The selected crewmen were Paul Saunders, William Hatfield, Francis Sever, Lawrence Newland, Edward Klinglesmith, James Richard, John Markuson, and William Walker. Hatfield wired the explosive charge, using a microswitch under the rails to trigger the explosion."

I remember reading that Fluckey was more proud of the fact that not a single sailor under his command was ever awarded a Purple Heart than he was of his own awards.

Thunder Below! is his account of the Barb's patrols.
 

PTY

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I believe there are one or two scenarios involving raids that a submarine is providing fire support, at least in a theoretical manner.
 

Old Noob

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I don't know about scenarios, but I do recall that the Marines at Betio atoll (one of the smaller islets) used a submarine's deck gun for fire support.
Correcting the fire was a b---h, due to time lapse of 1940s radios.
 

Old Noob

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Fire support from a deck gun that does not have a proper rangefinder [Kentucky windage for a 4", anyone?] is different than from a turreted gun on a warship.
Fire shot, then wait for the shore people to tell you how to correct. Then try again. Repeat until shore people either say "Cease fire!' or "You nearly hit me!".
 

Gordon

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I just finished "Thunder Below" and Fluckey was a helluva character. Unflappable comes to mind.
 

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For those not particularly familiar with the vessels here is a place you can look up individual histories. It is very basic but it does give some idea of who is who.

 

Ric of The LBC

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From the Wikipedia page of USS Barb:

"Upon completion of her 11th patrol, Barb was sent to the U.S. for a yard overhaul and alterations, which included the installation of 5 in (130 mm) rocket launchers at the Captain's request. Returning to the Pacific, she commenced her 12th and final patrol on 8 June. This patrol was conducted along the coasts of the Sea of Okhotsk. For the first time in U.S. submarine warfare, Barb successfully employed rockets, against the towns of Shari, Hokkaido; Shikuka, Kashiho; and Shiritoru on Karafuto. She also bombarded the town of Kaihyo To with her regular armament, destroying 60 percent of the town. She next landed a party of carefully selected crew members who blew up a railroad train. During the night of 22–23 July 1945 these men went ashore at Karafuto, Japan, and planted an explosive charge that subsequently wrecked a train."
I read a fictional book in Jr. High about the USS Mudskipper. "The sub that sunk a train". I did a book report on it too. Now that I think about it that book report saved me from getting a D in English.

AHH HA! Here it is: https://www.amazon.com/USS-Mudskipper-Submarine-Wrecked-Train/dp/B000FUIWV4 https://www.ebay.com/itm/USS-Mudskipper-The-Submarine-That-Wrecked-a-Train-William-M-Hardy-/151826718422
 

T34

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I thought the need was always evident. What better way to protect against truck OVR?


JR
Did you know: After coming off of Houseboat, Cary Grant was obsessed with Sophia Loren, who did not reciprocate his affection. He was depressed and his psychiatrist prescribed LSD, which he was on during filming of Operation Petticoat. If you notice, the Sea Tiger always goes left to right, because, at Grant's insistance: "Everyone knows that's the way boats go."

Also, the French built a Cruiser-Submarine to get around the Washington Naval Treaty restrictions:
A submarine designed to circumvent the Washington Naval Treaty, a couple of barely inhabitable rocks in the St. Lawrence Seaway and the resignation of Secretary of State Cordell Hull. What do they have in common? The story of how World War II came to North America.

The MN Surcouf was a French submarine designed to get around naval treaty restrictions on cruisers. While the Washington Treaty of 1922 placed limits on the number and size of cruisers, it did not touch on submarines. As a result, the Marine National developed a behemoth of a submarine which carried as its main armament two eight inch guns in a turret. Named the Surcouf after a famous French pirate, the eight inch guns were the main armament of the submarine and, while having limited range and taking a number of minutes to be made ready, were obviously far beyond the normal armament of a submarine.


Shortly after the Surcouf was laid down, this class of submarines was outlawed by an update to the treaty and it became a one-of-a-kind cruiser/submarine.

The Surcouf was in Brest for a refit when the war broke out and limped to Plymouth to prevent being turned over to the Germans. When the British tried to take control of the French navy for the Free French, there was gunfire and casualties on the Surcouf--action which made it of suspected loyalty. In fact, the Surcouf had Royal Navy personnel attached to it to ensure its loyalty. It became part of the Free French Navy and spent the next year escorting convoys in the North Atlantic.
click to enlarge.
On Christmas Eve, 1941, the Surcouf, along with the frigates Mimosa, Aconit and Alysse, against the orders of its American and British allies landed at a Vichy French outpost off of Newfoundland. The islands of Saint Pierre and Miquelon were barely more than rocks; fishing villages that serviced the Grand Banks. The islands were in desperate shape, as they technically were Vichy territory but had nowhere to get supplies and nowhere to ship its catch (the west coast of France was controlled by the Germans.) Starvation was a real threat and the Vichy government was almost universally hated by the population.



With only 12 gendarmes as an occupying force, the French Marines easily took control with not a shot fired. It was, after all, Christmas.

When word reached Washington, Secretary of State Cordell Hull, trying to prevent an outbreak of hostilities with Vichy France, was livid. De Gaulle had asked if he could take control of the islands and had been told in no uncertain terms that he could not. He ordered the action anyway.

Roosevelt and Churchill were together in Washington that Christmas and an enraged Hull found them, well, amused. He threatened to resign and Roosevelt promised to resolve some sort of solution.

After this, the Surcouf was to be sent to the Pacific, where presumably it would cause less mischief, but it never arrived. Presumably, it was accidentally sunk by US bombers, a patrol plane or a collision with a freighter. Or some combination of all three. Its wreckage was never found.

I looked for scenarios related too the Surcouf, but apparently there was no action at Brest in 1940 and, let's face it, nothing of interest in Sainte Pierre and Miquelon. It is a sad end to a rather unique breed of submarine.

 

Actionjick

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Did you know: After coming off of Houseboat, Cary Grant was obsessed with Sophia Loren, who did not reciprocate his affection. He was depressed and his psychiatrist prescribed LSD, which he was on during filming of Operation Petticoat. If you notice, the Sea Tiger always goes left to right, because, at Grant's insistance: "Everyone knows that's the way boats go."

Also, the French built a Cruiser-Submarine to get around the Washington Naval Treaty restrictions:
A submarine designed to circumvent the Washington Naval Treaty, a couple of barely inhabitable rocks in the St. Lawrence Seaway and the resignation of Secretary of State Cordell Hull. What do they have in common? The story of how World War II came to North America.

The MN Surcouf was a French submarine designed to get around naval treaty restrictions on cruisers. While the Washington Treaty of 1922 placed limits on the number and size of cruisers, it did not touch on submarines. As a result, the Marine National developed a behemoth of a submarine which carried as its main armament two eight inch guns in a turret. Named the Surcouf after a famous French pirate, the eight inch guns were the main armament of the submarine and, while having limited range and taking a number of minutes to be made ready, were obviously far beyond the normal armament of a submarine.


Shortly after the Surcouf was laid down, this class of submarines was outlawed by an update to the treaty and it became a one-of-a-kind cruiser/submarine.

The Surcouf was in Brest for a refit when the war broke out and limped to Plymouth to prevent being turned over to the Germans. When the British tried to take control of the French navy for the Free French, there was gunfire and casualties on the Surcouf--action which made it of suspected loyalty. In fact, the Surcouf had Royal Navy personnel attached to it to ensure its loyalty. It became part of the Free French Navy and spent the next year escorting convoys in the North Atlantic.
click to enlarge.
On Christmas Eve, 1941, the Surcouf, along with the frigates Mimosa, Aconit and Alysse, against the orders of its American and British allies landed at a Vichy French outpost off of Newfoundland. The islands of Saint Pierre and Miquelon were barely more than rocks; fishing villages that serviced the Grand Banks. The islands were in desperate shape, as they technically were Vichy territory but had nowhere to get supplies and nowhere to ship its catch (the west coast of France was controlled by the Germans.) Starvation was a real threat and the Vichy government was almost universally hated by the population.



With only 12 gendarmes as an occupying force, the French Marines easily took control with not a shot fired. It was, after all, Christmas.

When word reached Washington, Secretary of State Cordell Hull, trying to prevent an outbreak of hostilities with Vichy France, was livid. De Gaulle had asked if he could take control of the islands and had been told in no uncertain terms that he could not. He ordered the action anyway.

Roosevelt and Churchill were together in Washington that Christmas and an enraged Hull found them, well, amused. He threatened to resign and Roosevelt promised to resolve some sort of solution.

After this, the Surcouf was to be sent to the Pacific, where presumably it would cause less mischief, but it never arrived. Presumably, it was accidentally sunk by US bombers, a patrol plane or a collision with a freighter. Or some combination of all three. Its wreckage was never found.

I looked for scenarios related too the Surcouf, but apparently there was no action at Brest in 1940 and, let's face it, nothing of interest in Sainte Pierre and Miquelon. It is a sad end to a rather unique breed of submarine.

Nice thread, very interesting. I knew about the Barb and ran across the Surcouf yesterday while looking up the largest deck gun on a sub. They must have shook the whole boat when fired!

Some months back I watched a short video about Cary Grant using LSD, supposedly a meeting between him and Timothy Leary. I could see how he got hung up on Sophia but never heard of anyone taking acid as a cure for unrequited love. Any port in a storm I guess.
 

Actionjick

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The USS Hull, DD 945, had one of it's 5 inch guns replaced with an 8 inch gun mount in the mid 70s. Some of my shipmates talked to sailors stationed on the Hull who reported that the whole ship rattled when the 8 inch gun was fired. I can only imagine the effect on a sub.
 

T34

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Nice thread, very interesting. I knew about the Barb and ran across the Surcouf yesterday while looking up the largest deck gun on a sub. They must have shook the whole boat when fired!

Some months back I watched a short video about Cary Grant using LSD, supposedly a meeting between him and Timothy Leary. I could see how he got hung up on Sophia but never heard of anyone taking acid as a cure for unrequited love. Any port in a storm I guess.
Actually, LSD's effects on depression are still being evaluated. In Switzerland, microdosing is regularly used as therapy (although it is still illegal.) https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866252
 

T34

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The USS Hull, DD 945, had one of it's 5 inch guns replaced with an 8 inch gun mount in the mid 70s. Some of my shipmates talked to sailors stationed on the Hull who reported that the whole ship rattled when the 8 inch gun was fired. I can only imagine the effect on a sub.
I'm not sure the Surcouf's were ever fired in anger. At any rate, you can see how deep the draft was of the submarine and the short range was probably attributable to the small amount of propellant used.
 
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