What SHOULD the Russians have done?

cj95

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Im halfway through reading Pleshekov's "TheTsars last Armada" and enjoying it greatly.

It takes a slightly different tack in its portrayal of Admiral Rozhestvensky in that he is not painted as a "complete imbecile" as I have seen in other works.

The sheer hopelessness of the misison remains however, and I am left wondering what ...if anything... the Russians should have attempted.

Im left with some possibilities.

1. An earlier breakout attempt from PA to Vladivostok. PA was a deathtrap with its ring of hills, and Im wondering what a do or die attempt at breakout early in the conflict would have accomplished.

2. A quicker voyage from Rozhestvensky. The poor admiral was stuck in Madagascar for weeks on end waiting for the useless 3rd Squadron whiel Togo's fleet was allowed ample time to return to drydock and completely refit.

Im wondering what a quicker attempt to reach Asia would have resulted in, with Togo's battleships in worn out poor conditionfrom almost a solid year on station blockading PA.

3. An alternate route to Vladivostok.
Possibilities include the simple of avoiding Tsushima straits to the radical attempt at Cape Horn and across the Pacific.

Im interested to hear yalls ideas on the subject.......was it necessarily a hopeless cause? What would you have done?
 

martin worsey

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Good question.

As far as I can see, the modern ships in the Russian fleet were technically good and Borodinos were improvements on the Tsarevich which held its own at the Yellow Sea. It would appear that the causes of the Russian defeat were raw crews, poor morale and wear and tear due to the distances travelled.

I don’t see what could have been done to rectify the situation and my money would be on returning home once PA fell.

Not the most interesting prospect for a game.

NB: During my first run through of DG as the Japanese, I did not have it all my own way. Whilst I won the war and won virtually all the battles, I lost sufficient ships that I was unable to take the Russian battleships by the end of the campaign. In part, this was through underestimating the Russian BBs and tying to force matters in failing visibility.
 

delcyros

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Couldn't he have tried the Northern Route? From the North Sea via Norway through the Icesea & Beringstreet? The way is open during april to oct. and by need Icebreakers could have accompanied the force. Reprovisioning and Recoaling could have made accessible on russian ground and scheduled meeting places in quite bays near the mouth of the big rivers Lena, Ob and Yennesei. In these cold waters crew comfortability is compromised but growth rate on the shipy bottom is very slow, too. Intellegence would become impossible for the japanese in case the russians keep even moderate levels of secrecy. Finally, the approach to PA from the North is easier and the distance covered shorter, too.
 

saddletank

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I can imagine that suppling the fleet with coal, food, water, repairs and spares would be far harder on the N Siberian coast than around Europe, Africa and Asia.

Russia was a nation with very limited resources and transport networks at this stage and Siberia was more hostile and far larger than the American west. I doubt the rivers would have been useful transport routes since first you need to get the supplies to those rivers (via railway? what railway?) and then onto a suitable fleet of reasonably reliable inland-waterway ships (what fleet of ships?).

No, the infrastructure just was not there. It would have been an impossible route.
 

delcyros

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Granted, there is no railway system established at this time but th rivers are explored and used by lumber shipping companies with limited local transportation capabilities. The distance from St. Petersburg to PA via this Route is less than 16000 km (less than 8,500nm) and this may be broken down in four steps, each about 2000nm, to comfort the specified range of 2500nm @ 10kts:

[A] From st. Petersbourg through the Baltic, the North Sea to northern Norway with resupplying either in Norwegian ports or in Murmansk (developed marine base at this time): 2,000 to 2,300nm, 10 days
-2 days resprovisioning

northern Sibirian Route, from either Norway or Mumansk to the mouth of eitherLENA, JANA or KOLYMA rivers (1900-2200nm) -the latter may already be supported by Far East Asian stations (f.e. Petropavlosvk) using coastal shipping.
-9 days, 2 days reprovisioning

[C] From there through the Beringstreet to Petropavlosk (2000-2200nm)
-9 days,
4 days resprovisioning

[D] From Petropavlovsk to Vladivostok (without needing to go through the Tsushima street)

The most critical problem appears to be the timetable. It takes no less than 2 months to cross the distance but starting in oct. is impossible and You have to reckon with ice developments in november. When You start at sept, two week after commissioning of the newest battleships, it´s possible to get through the Beringstreet by mid / late oct. And the fleet would be around just in time to prevent the fall of PA in january.
 

saddletank

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I would imagine that with the usual delays and inertia the ice would come down before the fleet got through, or the threat of the ice doing so would prevent the fleet sailing before winter. The fleet didn't enter the north sea until 20th October by which time a transit of the northern seas would have been impossible given their resources. Waiting for the ice to thaw could mean a departure delayed until about April 1905 to ensure an ice-free route.

The Czar's ministers clearly had the choice of going via this route and chose not to, thus I think it was not a viable route.
 

martin worsey

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Seems like a plan but I’m not sure about the following: -

• You have some very new and some very old ships and any delays for maintenance and repairs could result in them getting stranded. I would not imagine that the logistics for getting supplies to ships overwintering in the Arctic would be straightforward.
• You lose the opportunity to collect the Olyslbya, Dimitri Donskoi, Aurora and associated destroyers from the Red Sea.
• Vladivostok would presumably only be available for a short period before it became icebound.
• Presumably, it would only be possible to defeat the Japanese if both Russian fleets sallied forth to attack it at the same time. It took more than arm twisting to persuade Vitgeft to leave Port Arthur. Ukhtomsky may have been even more reluctant.
 
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Bullethead

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2PacRon's mission was to raise the siege of Port Arthur by bringing overwhelming force to the theater. Its mission depended entirely on 1PacRon and Port Arthur both being intact upon its arrival. Given that both were gone long before 2PacRon reached its objective, there was absolutely no good reason for 2PacRon to continue.

Russia should have conceded at that point, but just to buy time. With neutrality restrictions lifted and no fear of interception, 2PacRon could have then gone wherever it wanted for however long it needed to get into full combat trim. And then do unto Japan what Japan had done to Russia.

But this of course begs the real question of what the Russians could have done to prevent the fall of Port Arthur. There appears to have been quite a lot there, both on land and at sea, which the Russians allowed to slip through their fingers from sheer incompetent leadership. Imagine the situation if 2PacRon had arrived with the IJN SLOCs shut down and the IJA not even to the Yalu yet, and somewhat depleted from aggressive action by 1PacRon. Then who'd have thrown in the towel?
 
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