Turkey dinner, with all the trimmin's!

Mantis

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Mark, I'm in an old game of 1.8 with Tiberius, and his recent invasion of Turkey (as a new route into Russia, attempting to break the stalemate) has got me thinking.

In the TOAW III version (and the last CoW version, too, if there are any events free), there should be a modifier to the USEV when the Axis declare war on Turkey. It won't do anything for my current game, but it makes sense to me for any subsequent games that everyone starts.

:horse:

Your thoughts?
 

Veers

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Mark, I'm in an old game of 1.8 with Tiberius, and his recent invasion of Turkey (as a new route into Russia, attempting to break the stalemate) has got me thinking.

In the TOAW III version (and the last CoW version, too, if there are any events free), there should be a modifier to the USEV when the Axis declare war on Turkey. It won't do anything for my current game, but it makes sense to me for any subsequent games that everyone starts.

:horse:

Your thoughts?
As in a modifier to add to the USEV, eh?
 

Mantis

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Yup. Makes sense to me.

The States is freaking every time Bill does anything, but he swarms into Turkey with obvious intent to slaughter them and sweep around the Russian lines, and the Yanks simply don't care?

Can't see it.

Think it should be added in for future games.
 

Veers

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Yup. Makes sense to me.

The States is freaking every time Bill does anything, but he swarms into Turkey with obvious intent to slaughter them and sweep around the Russian lines, and the Yanks simply don't care?

Can't see it.

Think it should be added in for future games.
It's a good point. Makes sense to me as well.
 

Raver

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Just a slightly different perspective on it ....

In game mechanics terms, the penalty for a german player going through Turkey is early Russian activation (once they make any real progress), adding the Turkish OOB to the allies, and having to fight in horrendous terrain. I think that adding a further disincentive in the form of increases to the USEV would make the turkish move completely not worthwhile.

BTW: Hi Mantis!! Good to see you're still kicking around.
 

Mantis

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All attacks on Turkey I have seen, save the one I'm now talking about (which is actually worse from the Allies point of view), were simply to cut through and creat a land route into the ME, and as such, would never incur the penalty you mention above. No sane player would go to wipe out the Turks completely unless he was already going to use this as a route into the Russians.

Ergo, there really is no penalty for this action - the Russian ability to declare war on you is worthless when you've already declared war on them. And from an Allied perspective, the Axis invasion to outright conquer Turkey is the worst possible neutral invasion the Germans can undertake at this time. It makes little sense that the Americans are going to outright freak out regardless of what the Axis do - take strategic objectives, invade the Swiss/Greeks/Norway, etc, and not have any objection to them wiping out a nation that provides a corridor right into the Reds that might well prove their undoing.

When the war in the East is in a precarious stalemate, and it threatens to become unhinged completely due to an action like this, I think the US would sit up and take notice. There is very little aggression left at this point that will not further raise the Yanks ire, imho.
 
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Mark Stevens

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I would have hoped, along with Jason, that having to fight the relatively large Turkish army in dodgy terrain was deterrent enough. I've never tried it, but is it so easy for the Axis to fight all along the Russian Front AND take on Turkey?

We could easily add 20 (? - %age variable?) to the USEV following an Axis Dow on Turkey with all the extra Events.
 

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I would have hoped, along with Jason, that having to fight the relatively large Turkish army in dodgy terrain was deterrent enough. I've never tried it, but is it so easy for the Axis to fight all along the Russian Front AND take on Turkey?
Personally, I agree with this strategic assessment. If someone has the forces available to open up the Turkish Front, and the time to slog through all of that ugly terrain, then they probably have the forces and time necessary to concentrate and blast through sections of the Soviet lines, wholesale.

Note, that this is predicated on the campaign already being in progress on that front. IMO, it is completely different from opening that front on the Soviets *ahead* of time, by a successful Mediterranean Strategy. However, once things are in progress on the Eastern Front, I feel that Turkey would simply be a distracting sideshow for the Axis that would only stretch their own reserves too far, bring in a not insubstantial enemy, and allow another front for the Western Allies to make trouble in.

Of course, the objective of achieving strategic surprise by successfully doing something that most would naysay, shouldn't be underestimated either. Bill told me he was going to try that a month ago when we had dinner at El Toritos, but I didn't try to talk him out of it, since he already seemed to have his mind set on it. You guys let us know how it works out, okay?
 

Mantis

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That sounds good to me. (Marks' post - James beat me to it!) And yes, properly done, it is quite do-able to wipe Turkey. Bill isn't having luck making a major exploitation anywhere on the EF; he can push me back almost anywhere he chooses, but it's very much WWI style... There will not be another breakthrough of any significant scale. But with some well-executed airdrops to mess up my rail line, the hordes of Reds I have ready to enter Turkey are many turns away from Ankara (4 - 6 turns away?), and he's going to be there in about 2 turns. Nothing can really be done, unless I can quickly finish off an offensive I (luckily) have going in the ME against his invading Germans. This coincidence is the only thing that is stopping this from being a steamroller affair. The few Panzers and mech units w/arty support et al he has made available for this operation would allow him to push back a hex or three in the EF proper, but with the Axis element of surprise attack, the Turks are in bad shape indeed.

And at this point, with the Suez Canal under threat, a massive land war going on just SW of Tripoli (over 30 Allied units there), Malta and Gibraltar in Axis hands so the Brits cannot ferry their shiny new corps to the Canal/Turkey in less than ~12 turns, Bill just a handful of hexes from Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad...

With all this, and Turkey about to be overwhelmed, the US simply overlooks this one? Methinks not! :D
 
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Mantis

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Ahh - another point - this is a 1.8 game, so I'm going to assume that all the strengthening that the Turks received is not present in this game I have going? (That could make quite a difference). I have about 4 Turkish units that will make it to the capital ahead of Bill, with 1 destroyed, another holding the port, and one cut off. That's all they have.

I'm not really concerned that the war has ended, I'm just surpised that the US will freak over Greece (which is considerably stronger than the Turkey I've inherited), and the like, and not have a reaction to such bold-faced aggression.

Another consideration - in the 'early' Turkey (as James pointed out - a different ballgame), should there not be a US penalty for that, either? I guess what I'm looking for here is a sense of consistency. There is a penalty for pretty much *any* German aggression, regardless who the victim is. I've never seen the Turks in any recent version - are they strong enough that their entry is of itself the penalty (almost like a semi-major power?), or do they deserve to have the Americans take notice?

Would the US have historically ignored this invasion in RL? The politics ala Turkey are not something I have alot of information on, so I'm not certain about the realities of this move. The eventual decision here doesn't affect me or my game, I just want to be sure that we get it right, Axis or Allied!
 

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Hi guys! Long time no see.

Mantis and I are going strong on this game again and it's proven to be
quite interesting.

I have no particular opinion relating to the U.S. entry issue and Turkey
apart from to say that if U.S. entry is advanced due to axis invasion of
Turkey perhaps it should be retarded by Soviet conquest of Finland
(eh Mantis).

Yes I have found it impossible to break through Mantis' fortified lines
in Russian and decided that I would have to go around. I made a concerted
effort there in the spring of '41 (I started Barbarossa in '40 - a major error
on my part.), and ....almost...... was able to split the Russians North from
south and create a breakthrough. But at what cost? Attacking those fortified
defenses you watch your units shrink in front of your very eyes.

(an aside Mark - is that the way the mechanics of the game are structured
it seems Necessruse the sorts of 'gamey' tactics much discussed in the past t try to break through a fortified line)

I tried another diversionary attack in Russia when I launched the Turkey invasion to keep Mantis holding an honest defense in Russia, but quickly
called it off after gaining a few hexes along the front line and shrinking my
units down to about 1/2 strength.

sorry about the rambiling disjointed getting off topic post
but the game is so interesting I thought I'd put a word in.

p.s. Mantis I am, of course, making a concerted effort to retard U.S. entry
-and you thought you could bait me into pulling Spain in. It's really interesting
having it variable. I have no idea where it is so I don't want to give it the least little nudge.

p.p.s. the Battles in Syria are a whole nother story
 

Mantis

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Hi guys! Long time no see.

Mantis and I are going strong on this game again and it's proven to be
quite interesting.

I have no particular opinion relating to the U.S. entry issue and Turkey
apart from to say that if U.S. entry is advanced due to axis invasion of
Turkey perhaps it should be retarded by Soviet conquest of Finland
(eh Mantis).
There's already a penalty to the Allies for the Reds trying the winter war. And that's even if I fail to take the place, so it's a good deal for the Axis... ;)

Yes I have found it impossible to break through Mantis' fortified lines in Russian
And that's with me never losing vast quantities of my troops to encirclement, being able to preserve most of my forces, generally always getting something in your way, and yet you still managed to push me back all along the entire front, and almost to the map edge in one location, and it was still just the first year of the campaign! :surprise: In spite of a very stiff defence, I'd have to say that your attack has been incredibly well executed. Had you managed even a single large breakthrough, or even a couple of decent encirclements, I think we'd already be reading the game report...
Great stuff, Bill! :salute:

and decided that I would have to go around. I made a concerted
effort there in the spring of '41 (I started Barbarossa in '40 - a major error
on my part.), and ....almost...... was able to split the Russians North from
south and create a breakthrough. But at what cost? Attacking those fortified
defenses you watch your units shrink in front of your very eyes.
I can't tell you how tense some of those turns were. Always mixed emotions - I was proud of my defence for always managing to get a little something together to thwart your advance, but bloody hell, you never stopped advancing! And this was a huge contribution - during virtually the entire campaign, Bill has managed to get many rounds. I think there were only a small number of times that he got low numbers, with most of them (iirc) coming in around 5, and I seem to recall several 7's or 8's in there... :scream:

sorry about the rambiling disjointed getting off topic post
but the game is so interesting I thought I'd put a word in.
All good - I'm also enjoying this game more than I can say. The ones where you really have no idea whether or not you're going to be standing when the dust clears are always the most entertaining!

p.s. Mantis I am, of course, making a concerted effort to retard U.S. entry
-and you thought you could bait me into pulling Spain in. It's really interesting
having it variable. I have no idea where it is so I don't want to give it the least little nudge.
Yeah, I've been wondering about that too, let me tell you! (Damned Yankees!) :laugh:

p.p.s. the Battles in Syria are a whole nother story
Yeah, that is really developing into an interesting situation, isn't it? My biggest concern at the moment is where the hell are you getting all of these troops, and are you ever going to run out of units? I've been doing my utmost to force you to defend as long and crazy a front as I can possibly manage. I don't believe I've *ever* seen the German have to stretch across so much terrain so early. And you're now invading Turkey and Syria, and continuing to reinforce each one... I'm made up of 15 countries, and I can barely manage to cover that much ground, how are you managing to do it? :eek:

I'll give a detailed description of our game for the rest of you when I get to that part of the latest round of Sitreps from Hell, complete with a few screens.
 
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