The Story of O - A review of Orsogna

THE GOOD
Theatre, Quality, Rules, Maps Counters
The BADD

Nothing at all

THE BAD
Nothing at all
ORIGINALITY
5.00 star(s)
PRESENTATION
5.00 star(s)
FUN
5.00 star(s)
PLAYER'S VERDICT

10 'Essential'

Sparafucil3

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The problem is the LOS. If you need to go in crest on the top level to see levels below you are simulating a plateau with steep slopes. Prokhorovka OSF reverse slope is not a plateau and the slopes are gentle. Since anyway LOS are obstructed in some positions, you may not simulate it as a single level map. So if you want try to simulate that action you need to use a rule already part of ASL that is the "hillock". Even BFP used hillocks in its work on Zitadelle. Steppe terrain is a part of DTO in ASL and uses hillocks.

I suggest you to make a virtual walk with Google Earth on that fields near Prokhorovka and you will understand better what i mean.
I said above the problem with my solution would be too much LOS. I understand why you did it.

But lets take a look at the example on PRK6. A unit which is "upslope" can see "over" the next crest line in ASL. Now your levels a half height/Hillocks. On a "normal" board--where there would be one crest line in that example, the LOS to KK13 is clear. The "upslope" Tiger has LOS to over the adjacent crest line and can see KK13 (since there would be no other crest line in between the units except the one in KK13). Here, the LOS is blocked. Let's look at the hillock rules. The "upslope" Tiger is on a "hillock" two 1/2 levels above KK13, effectively sitting on a Hilltop Summit (F6.6 HILLOCK SUMMIT: Overlays H1 and H4 each contain a hex the color of level-one hill terrain. Such a hex is termed a Hillock Summit hex, and represents one hillock upon another with a total obstacle height of one level.) That Tiger is "upslope" and one full level higher than KK13. Being one full level higher, he would be able to see the unit in KK13 were he in a crest hexside. But being "upslope", he should be able to see over the first crest line which would allow him to see KK13.

I have no problem with your use of slopes. I really think it was a clever idea. I also think using hillocks was clever. I just think you could have used a couple of pages of example to clarify your intent since as I see it, your intent doesn't align with the rules we already have. I think you could probably do that in a graphic and make things very easy to understand. I really did try to understand it, I just could reconcile it with what I already (think) I know.

Like I said, it says way more about me than it does about your product. -- jim
 
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Hello, could you make me an example of this? And i should need many since you write "often"
Yes, here are some examples.

BA6 : German OB = 12 Squads-Equivalent / 10 SW (not counting the crews)
Italian OB = 10 SE / 10 SW
British OB = 34 SE / 23 SW

BR1 : Italian OB = 6 SE / 5 SW

BR3 : US OB = 13.5 SE / 11 SW

BR5 : US OB = 6 SE / 3 SW
German OB = 5 SE / 4 SW

BR7 : German OB : 7 SE / 7 SW

BR9 : US OB = 6 SE / 6 SW
German OB = 10 SE / 7 SW

ORS1 : German OB = 7 SE / 9 SW

ORS8 : German OB = 25 SE / 21 SW

ORS11 : German OB = 11 SE / 9 SW

These are your designs and I respect your choices. Just it is not my cup of tea.
Peace 🙏
 

sebosebi

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Yes, here are some examples.

BA6 : German OB = 12 Squads-Equivalent / 10 SW (not counting the crews)
Italian OB = 10 SE / 10 SW
British OB = 34 SE / 23 SW

BR1 : Italian OB = 6 SE / 5 SW

BR3 : US OB = 13.5 SE / 11 SW

BR5 : US OB = 6 SE / 3 SW
German OB = 5 SE / 4 SW

BR7 : German OB : 7 SE / 7 SW

BR9 : US OB = 6 SE / 6 SW
German OB = 10 SE / 7 SW

ORS1 : German OB = 7 SE / 9 SW

ORS8 : German OB = 25 SE / 21 SW

ORS11 : German OB = 11 SE / 9 SW

These are your designs and I respect your choices. Just it is not my cup of tea.
Peace 🙏
Let's take an example, ORS8, German placed line of defense, three slightly underrated German companies of an elite PzGren Regiment. Usually, in these cases, a platoon of the 4th company (heavy weapons) was mixed with each company. I think that the one HMG/one MMG per company is the minimum, then the three LMG (one more per each platoon, and there are 447 squads) is enough realistic. They had, as PZGren, one PSK per company (minimum) and a DC per company (minimum)... i really don't understand where is the error, i don't think the main argument should be the SE/SW ratio to be a cup or tea or less, 6 of the 21 SW have a ROF >= 2, German HMG become MMG when they are moved/dismantled. ROF dependent? Glad to know that you make so often 1 with the coloured die :)👍.
 

sebosebi

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... Now your levels a half height/Hillocks. ...
The levels are not half height/Hillocks, but the opposite, in fact in 2.12 and 2.12.1 of Prokhorovka rules:

"although the difference is still treated as a full level for other purposes, except as amended below"

"Hillock rules (F6) apply in relation to any LOS/LOF traced to/from levels immediately above and below a given Location" not to any LOS between any level

"For the purposes of computing differences in elevation for A6.43, all Hill levels are considered full."
 

Sparafucil3

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The levels are not half height/Hillocks, but the opposite, in fact in 2.12 and 2.12.1 of Prokhorovka rules:

"although the difference is still treated as a full level for other purposes, except as amended below"

"Hillock rules (F6) apply in relation to any LOS/LOF traced to/from levels immediately above and below a given Location" not to any LOS between any level

"For the purposes of computing differences in elevation for A6.43, all Hill levels are considered full."
So they are half height except for when they aren't. You realize even in this post you say they are 1/2 height sometime and full height on others. This is why I found LOS confusing. -- jim
 

sebosebi

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So they are half height except for when they aren't. You realize even in this post you say they are 1/2 height sometime and full height on others. This is why I found LOS confusing. -- jim
Is this the only rule you ever read that has a limit of application? Or that is a mix of two existing rules?
 

Sparafucil3

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Is this the only rule you ever read that has a limit of application? Or that is a mix of two existing rules?
It is very unusual for terrain to be read on different ways in the same scenario. Can you name another where this takes place? -- jim
 

sebosebi

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It is very unusual for terrain to be read on different ways in the same scenario. Can you name another where this takes place? -- jim
First of all I would like you to write some more detail on the word "confusing" and "inconsistency" if not your intent seems almost to offend/ argue and not to dialogue. We have been testing these rules for two years and we guarantee that they work and that there is no inconsistency at all with other rules. The playtesters and many players did not find it confusing at all. Prokhorovka is fortunately played.

If you want to make a new rule for the terrain it may appear superficially that it is "read on different ways in the same scenario", but it is just a new rule, no fear! And if there are no other cases it is not that there can be no first applications of such kind of rules. You can say that it is not traditional not confusing. I don’t understand what confusion it creates for you if everything is clearly explained. Just follow the rules!

The fields around Prokhorovka are not entirely flat but curved... Which means that as you go up or down, you see new things and you don’t see others any more. And in addition they create blind hexes over long distances, also because the differences in altitude are significant, tens of meters. It would have been impossible to realize that effect which is the real one using only the plateau with the steep slopes of the traditional ASL hill (the mesoamerican pyramids scheme) or only the almost without blind hexes scheme of the Hillocks. We needed something in the middle, and it was what we used. We just wanted to make no compromises using the traditional ASL schemes because they would create a situation that would not fit in with reality. I don't see anything "confusing" in that.

You prove to be a rational mind when you talk about ASL. But in this case, for some unkown reason, you are only very negative and you have no desire to rework your judgment. I could spend days explaining to you, but you understood everything and at the same time you did not understand anything because the rules are, it is not understandable why, "confusing", and from there you do not get off. I would therefore say that it might be better to finish the debate here. I will not answer you anymore because it seems useless to me, except that you do not make me understand that there is a dialogue and a possibility of openness on these concepts. It was a pleasure.

Seb
 

Sparafucil3

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First of all I would like you to write some more detail on the word "confusing" and "inconsistency" if not your intent seems almost to offend/ argue and not to dialogue. We have been testing these rules for two years and we guarantee that they work and that there is no inconsistency at all with other rules. The playtesters and many players did not find it confusing at all. Prokhorovka is fortunately played.
I have ZERO intent to offend. I am super happy Prokhorovka is played. I do not doubt you have played the rules for two years.

If you want to make a new rule for the terrain it may appear superficially that it is "read on different ways in the same scenario", but it is just a new rule, no fear! And if there are no other cases it is not that there can be no first applications of such kind of rules. You can say that it is not traditional not confusing. I don’t understand what confusion it creates for you if everything is clearly explained. Just follow the rules!
I have said from the very beginning this probably says more about me that it does your product. I will say you had two years to understand it. I had two readings of the rules and two scenarios and I didn't get it. How long did it take your playtesters to understand it? Did they have the benefit of someone explaining it to them and then the rules grew along with them?

The fields around Prokhorovka are not entirely flat but curved... Which means that as you go up or down, you see new things and you don’t see others any more. And in addition they create blind hexes over long distances, also because the differences in altitude are significant, tens of meters. It would have been impossible to realize that effect which is the real one using only the plateau with the steep slopes of the traditional ASL hill (the mesoamerican pyramids scheme) or only the almost without blind hexes scheme of the Hillocks. We needed something in the middle, and it was what we used. We just wanted to make no compromises using the traditional ASL schemes because they would create a situation that would not fit in with reality. I don't see anything "confusing" in that.
And from the beginning, I have said your use of slopes, hillocks, and normal crest lines was a good beginning. I cannot be more clear about that.

You prove to be a rational mind when you talk about ASL. But in this case, for some unkown reason, you are only very negative and you have no desire to rework your judgment. I could spend days explaining to you, but you understood everything and at the same time you did not understand anything because the rules are, it is not understandable why, "confusing", and from there you do not get off. I would therefore say that it might be better to finish the debate here. I will not answer you anymore because it seems useless to me, except that you do not make me understand that there is a dialogue and a possibility of openness on these concepts. It was a pleasure.

Seb
I am not looking for an argument. I am not looking to make you angry. Again, I will say this discussion says more about me than it does your product. I am sorry you cannot see how a mixture of slopes and crestlines used to depict Hillocks in one situation and Crest lines in another could be confusing to someone seeing the same artwork on the map for the first time. I don't have the benefit of playing it for two years and growing along with the rules. I do think your approach in Orsonga is better, using the red crest lines to depict the gentle slopes. This is probably easier for most to see. Sadly, I am red/green color blind so it is hard for me to see on the map. I will try Orsanga over Christmas.

Merry Christmas Seb. Sorry I made you angry. That isn't my intent. Clearly, I own everything you have ever made. -- jim
 

Robnewbury

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So this review inspired me to but orsogna. Arrived today and here’s some quick initial thought. Haven’t scratched the surface of the rules so just a components review really
  1. It arrived today!! In Australia!! With busy xmas postage crap going on. That is an amazingly quick delivery. Love Mmp stuff but from first preorder going out to receiving in oz can sometimes take three months which can be frustrating. Hats off to that delivery.
  2. The rules are as a booklet. Same paper quality as prokhorovka. Don’t know if I’ll hole punch it and store with my other hasl’s or keep as a booklet. It would be nice if it’s a booklet to have the cover as a higher quality paper.
  3. Scenarios are chronologically numbered, which seems to be standard these days. Makes sense. Scenarios that are more than one page can be on the reverse of a different scenario at times. I’d happily pay more to have all a scenario on one piece of paper, front and back, and have more paper with less on them.
  4. The map is amazing. It’s refreshing to have a different style to Mmp but still remaining very intuitive.
  5. Counters looks great. I guess it’s just a result of printing technology coming a long way in 30 years but they are definitely way more detailed than regular Mmp stuff. Hopefully my eyesight holds out to appreciate the difference. It’s nice that it seems to be only extra counters that would be needed to play the larger CG. No unnecessary extra 4-6-7’s or German LMG’s just to justify including counters.
6. I have barely skimmed the rules and I’m sure it would take months to give a fair review of them. I like what the op mentioned about advancing fire products being what asl can be. This seems, at first glance to be “advanced” advanced squad leader. Something that really excites me.

Anyways, I rarely post here but I just wanted to contribute how impressed I am with this product. Thanks to all involved in its production.
 

rHunter2002

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The Story of O - a review of Advancing Fire’s Orsogna

Full Disclosure

I spent a lot of time playtesting and received a free copy.

I have not provided a description of everything in the module – there are enough unboxing videos already. And I have not looked at or discussed the CGs.

I’m a firm believer that life is too short to play on geoboards, I prefer to play with the rules that exist but are rarely implemented. Give me mud, give me LV, give me combat engineering!

The Problem with ASL Reviews
The only good ASL review would be a review of a product that has been out for years, and that the reviewer has played against countless opponents, innumerable times. Otherwise, it’s just one dude’s opinion, based on feel and experience.
So, by that frank admission this is a bad review. However, if you wait ten years until every known errata and tactic for playing Orsogna is uncovered and put into this review then Orsogna will be out of print.
(But, as one of the 16 play testers, that does make me more qualified than the other 8 billion people on earth to write this review).
So once again, get ready for my bad review.

Touching The Package

View attachment 27499


I don’t know why, but there are some box fetishists out there. This section is for you.

I throw away most of my boxes, I keep a couple for overlays and extra counter sheets but in general they go straight into the recycling. I like to think there’s another ASLer working at a recycling centre somewhere who appreciates my taste.
The only other box I kept is the Prokhorovka box as the maps are so chonky they don’t fit in my normal map storage.

View attachment 27500

The Orsogna box is the same size. It’s probably some standard European, well researched, golden rectangle, hyper efficient storage ideal, that consequently won’t fit on American shelves.

Mine arrived, like me, well packaged. In terms of toughness, I would imagine that it would stop a tennis ball dropped from a few centimetres (about an inch y’all) but it wouldn’t stop a 5.56 (home defence) round.
Once again, like me, it would look pretty on a shelf, but as soon as I’m done writing this, it’s going in the bin.
I’ll leave the box art review to Jeff and Dave, but there is no egregious spelling error on the front cover. Good Job Sebi!

Stroking The Map
ASL players, being a small subset of a larger deviant population, can complain about anything. So maybe it’s best I don’t even mention the maps. I mean you can keep some of the people happy some of the time, but at the end of the day Jazbutis is still around.

The Orsogna maps are 170gsm, the Biazza Ridge maps, which, like me, were beautiful but very fragile, were 80gsm.

To put this into ASL terms Biazza Ridge is about as thick as the free sheets of coloured paper you get in each MMP module, but Orsogna is a beefed up KGP map thickness.

I’m genuinely surprised that the people who complained that BR was too thin did not also complain that Prokhorovka was too thick.

So that’s the substance of the maps covered.

In terms of content, you get 4 maps. Each map is clearly marked 1-4 on the upper fold of each sheet, so you don’t need to open each map to identify the number.

Each map is 235.5cm by 79.5cm (or for any Imperial readers - 0.0012 Nautical Miles by 45000 twips).

In ASL terms it’s 6cm shorter than two sets of RB, and just to trigger someone, about 5mm wider. This excess is a lovely blue strip that I presume designates an entry area but could be cut off if you’ve only got a feeble gaming table.

View attachment 27501


Overall, it’s a wee bit smaller that DAK, so if you have a DAK table somewhere use that. If you don’t have a DAK table, then bro, you gotta ask yourself do you really game?

The maps, together, are 118 by 47 hexes. That’s 5546 hexes. In terms of terrain it covers about the same area as the DZ:SME map.

It’s a good playable size. Not too wide, so if you can play the Germans in RB and whilst reaching for the Volga your gut doesn’t knock down your kill stacks, you’ll be fine here.


There are 10 levels. Colour differences are clear and there is a key at each end of the map. Crest lines are clear.

View attachment 27502


There are very few place names, those that are picked out in a pleasant blue, which stands out from the terrain.

There are some buildings which are not on the centre dot, similarly there are a few combination terrain hexes. I know some people don’t dig this, but it’s covered in the first rule of Chapter B. It creates more interesting LOS, so I’m down with it.

One new, to me at least, feature is the use of different coloured hex numbers to delineate two of the maps into separate CG areas. This sometimes negates the need for masking the map during play.

The map is beautiful. Gloomy enough to evoke a winter’s day in a cold and dark December, but variegated and bright enough to facilitate play. The VASL map is the same, during PT I never had a question about the map.
What does the map show? A long plateau dropping off to the North and East into vineyard and olive covered valleys. The head of the plateau looks suspiciously like a frogfish.

At a very rough count about 250 of the hexes are buildings so it’s about 5% buildings. The rest of the map is brush, woods, orchards, vineyards, olive groves.
New terrain types are reedbeds, haystacks, cobblestoned hexes, craters and hillocks.

I can hear the sharp intake of breath when I mentioned hillocks. Well, I got a few things to say. There are very few on this map, in fact it’s a few hex sides that kind of act like hillocks. They cost only a bit extra to move up and don’t block los. Easy eh?
The second thing I got to say about hillocks is that they’re extremely difficult to grok from the ASLRB, but straight forward in this context. The third thing I got to say about hillocks is that they’re a really cool terrain feature akin to slopes that adds some extremely interesting LOS possibilities to maps.

And, another thing, hillocks are here to stay (possibly disguised as embankment railroads) but here all the same.

There are also slopes. This Advancing Fire mix of hillocks and slopes will be discussed in a separate article. Having said that there are very very few slopes or hillock crest lines.

This is as far away from BR complexity as you can get whilst still containing slopes and hillocks.

Downtown Orsogna

View attachment 27503

What does deserve special mention is the depiction of Orsogna village. The villages and old town centres of Europe are not at all well depicted in ASL. Narrow streets make an effort, but they don’t tell the story.
(I’d recommend spending a bit of time in Google Street View in Orsogna to see the actuality of what AF is trying to represent).

The small dense village built around the central boulevard is a defender’s dream. Rowhouses surround the central road, forcing the Kiwis to attack along the row houses or to try their luck on the boulevard. They could of course just outflank the town to the West, except there is a massive on map minefield preventing that.

There’s a limited tunnel system, similar to the tunnel complex in Fortress Cassino.

Constricted, claustrophobic village terrain, with Paratroop infantry moving through the village via breaches. The roads into town are mined, or even cratered and then mined.

The contrast between the wide-open terrain of most of the map and the tight cluster of stone buildings making up Orsogna guarantees two very different kinds of fight.

Ruddy Counters!

Two full colour counter sheets. White core, the same quality as supplied with Prokhorovka.

The “British” counters provide a phat boost to any counter tray. 45 regular 457s!

There is also a smaller Māori infantry OB, identical to the regular Brits save an identifying symbol. (Māori are stealthy, can use H2H and can leap across shallow streams). In total I count about 104 squads with associated SMC, HS and SW.

Two dozen colour Shermans – the wreck side is very well done (best get used to seeing that side).

The Germans have about 60 squads representing Parachute infantry, their HS and SMC also. There are a few of the shorter-range FSJ 81mm mortars also. I guess that these shorter-range mortars have never been needed in ASL before, but in Orsogna, where even your normal 60 hex range GrW 34 will often be out of range, I can see why the newer Kz GrW 42 are needed. There are a few counters to represent units of an Italian Paratroop unit which fought also.
And naturally both sides get a few assault engineers.

View attachment 27506

One highlight is 4 beautiful, individually illustrated sniper counters per side, two for each side, for each sector.

View attachment 27504

In terms of system counters, there are some burnt out woods/orchards counters, debris, haystacks etc.

There is a stack of control counters, which unlike everyone else’s control counters are 5/8” and brightly coloured, good decisions.

View attachment 27505



The counters are gorgeous, but do we really need them? (In the spirit of transparency, I hate new counters).

They’re certainly hard to avoid, it seems that nearly every new HASL has counters.

There are certain counters that are needed in greater quantity than are provided for in the prerequisite modules – here clearly there is a need for more 457’s than are in FKAC.
There are counters needed to differentiate similar troops on the same field (Maori, NKVD, British Airborne troops). Then there are new types of troops that the designer feel must be portrayed.

As much terrain, and many battles were unique, then we need to accept that designers, whilst representing these battles through new maps and SSRs, also introduce new counters. New counters are a necessary evil, but in this case at least, a beautiful necessary evil.

May We See Your Papers Please?

A quick word about the scenario sheets and CG charts. There are 14 scenarios. They are full colour on good quality glossy heavy paper. Some are printed on one page, some back printed and some back printed on different pages.

Other charts are a CG roster, a FPP chart (if I want to purchase a blazing haystack I can), CG organiser, CG purchase charts, a terrain chart which gives MP/MF costs for combinations night/mud/elevation change etc. The same size paper is used as Prokhorovka so it will fit in Letter and A4 page protectors. I didn’t know such diplomatic paper existed…

The Rules are bound in a magazine style. This is far, far easier to handle and read that separate punched pages. I applaud this decision.

A Fair Complexion?

I’ve stated before that complexity in an ASL module is measured by how the designer implements some of the less well know rules and how he introduces new rules
.
Well Advancing Fire introduce a third aspect to this complexity – tweaking and as any Floridians know, tweaking is an acquired taste.

So, in the triumvirate of complexity is Orsogna complex?

A resounding yes. Let’s look at how.

In the little or less used rules corner we have mud, rain, night (including lots of vehicles at night) barbed wire fences, hillocks, slopes, narrow streets, olive groves and vineyards.

In the new rules corner, there are Artillery Observer Teams, rules for close urban terrain including cobblestoned areas, craters, haystacks, reed beds and rules for remaining HIP.

The rules in red are the rules that have been tweaked.

Is this a good thing? I believe so, let me example.

1.12A “Ok, wind, nothing. Rally”

The Wind Change step of the ASOP can be the most mundane stage of a game, useful mainly to chide your opponent that he’s lost his reinforcements because he rolled the wind before he set them up. Or it can completely change the face of the game as Chad (the good looking one from Hazmo) recently argued.

In Orsogna, as in Prokhorovka there is a bit more that goes into the WC.

Rain is often the kiss of death for an attacker. (Old Man Shouts at Cloud moment) Each WC there’s a 17% chance that all of your smoke will disappear, and often more importantly, you’ll need to pay 1 MF extra for an elevation change. Now if you’re playing in mud and in an environment with slopes then suddenly your movement expenses are massively increased for the rest of the game! All this for a measly mist modifier that doesn’t even cancel FFMO. Stoopid rain.

Advancing Fire have tweaked the weather rules to be more fun and less devastating. So now rain does not eliminate smoke, but it does diminish it faster. Rain does not automatically increase the cost for moving up and down slopes, only if it rains a lot.

This adds a tiny bit of complexity but is well worth it.

There are minor tweaks – German HMGs that move from their at start position become MMGs. It’s more difficult to remain concealed and advance into CC in a building hex.

There are also systematic, under the hood tweaks which form an AF tradition. HMGs are very rare and there are no leaders in the CG or scenarios that start better than a 9-1.

Some of these tweaks are annoying outside of Orsogna. For example, after months of playing only Orsogna, my regular opponent and I started an OVHS CG. We kept having to relearn the regular rules (“Is that base rules or Sebi rules?”).

So, whilst the commitment is worth it to fully get down in the mud at Orsogna, there is price to pay.

And before anyone pipes up with “too much chrome” remember ASL is a game that represents the thermodynamics of white phosphorus smoke in cave systems. We’re way past the stage of complaining about chrome.

To summarise the complexity. If you’re going to play the majority of Orsogna the extra complexity is a worthwhile investment. If you’re going to buy it and play one scenario, then you’ll struggle with the investment/reward ratio.


Game, play

Orsogna fits a niche. With the exceptions of Crossing the Moro, Casa Beradi, Fortress Cassino and Primosole Bridge (all small) there aren’t any other HASL set in the Italian theatre.

Orsogna is at an interesting point in the war. The Kiwis still have red TH numbers, but the Germans don’t yet have panzerfausts. So, the Shermans struggling through the mud and the mines are very easy targets to the PAK 40s 36 hexes away, which are in turn largely invulnerable.

Weather and ground conditions are an overriding factor in the scenarios.

In terms of visibility, there are many hindrances, combined with rain, it’s often not an easy battlefield to see. One thing worthy of mention is how many of the scenarios allow the player to change the battlefield by using PFZs, haystacks and craters. Like rubble placement in Hatten, it allows the defender to change the battlefield. I like this aspect a lot.

In terms of movement, with the exception, I think of the first scenario, it’s muddy. So, vehicles lose their mobility, if you want to see a Sherman flip over, try driving over a crestline in the mud.

The poor infantry really become foot sloggers.

The most comparable product I’ve seen is FC, where similarly, an outnumbered German force uses the terrain and fortifications to hold off a far superior force. (The same formations fought again at Cassino).

Things I don’t like?

I’m struggling to find things that I dislike in Orsogna. I really am. I know what other people don’t like. But I don’t agree that back printed scenario cards, complex rules and shadows on buildings are important or negative. I’m not too interested in the interviews (I know others will be) but I’m not really a historical player. I do appreciate the bibliography and the clear care and attention that went into this module.

There will be errata. There will be errors. I’ll put my cards on the table and say there’s nothing I don’t like about Orsogna.


Do I Enjoy It?

As I mentioned upstream, I’m not a historical player. I couldn’t tell you the differences between a PzIVJ and a PzIVH in real life. But I’m enthralled by how designers take historical environments and units and turn them into DRMs, terrain costs and VCs.

I think this module is fantastic. It’s the best module that I own. It adds immense depth at a small cost in complexity. It pushes and augments my rules knowledge whilst introducing me to a battle that imposes different challenges on both sides. It demands a style of play I have not found in other modules.

Excellent job Advancing Fire.

Will You enjoy it?

Here we have the reason I’m writing, here we have the reason you’re reading.

Will you enjoy it? I think this is simple. If you’re the kind of player, that 30 years after slopes were introduced into the system, is still moaning that they’re a bit too complex, and that you don’t really like them, then this module is not for you.

If you don’t want to play FW as it’s not real ASL, you won’t enjoy Orsogna.

In short, if you’re happy with what ASL is, then you won’t enjoy.

However, if you’re interested in seeing what ASL can be, then this is a perfect module.
Hello,

I am thinking of buying Orsogna, but an a pure VASL player.

I noticed you posted using VASL in play testing. Can you provide the board names for the VASL board picker? Thanks for your help
 

ibncalb

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Can you provide the board names for the VASL board picker? Thanks for your help
Hey bud. I'm not sure they've been released yet.

Keep an eye on


They'll pop up there eventually.
 

synicbast

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Just had my copy arrive in New Zealand, gifted to me by a fellow ASL player.

Box: It's actually pretty flimsy by comparison to the LFT folders of KGS and St Nazaire:
I would say that the two spines, the front and back cover (including tabs) and the flap are no weightier than a slightly sturdy creal box. The bottom and top spines are double skinned so have some heft but still nothing like that of say MMP's St Mère Église or GMT's Normandy '44 boxes. Even though my copy was shipped to me in a durable posting box, the weight of the components shifting around during transit caused some significant and irredeemable bowing/creasing in the frontal spine even with the shrinkwrapping.

Mapsheets (4):
I like the style (building shadows are slightly overdone on some of the smaller stone buildings where it is hard to determine where the building ends and the shadow begins. )
Paper thickness: excellent. Much better than I was expecting, someone mentioned 170gsm weight. Definitely feels more robust than MMP, and seems to be even more durable. Matte printed which should be the default standard for game maps.

Counters: On par with LFT, so very nice indeed and some really good CG specific counters. Very nice to see a preponderance of NZ 1st Line troops in light of the massive influx of new replacements.

Scenarios: Well laid out as I prefer to have immediate access to all aspects of the scenario without having to flip the card over constantly, especially when doing pre-game counter selection, well illustrated, good graphics. A couple of typos/missing end of sentences in the prologues and aftermaths but nothing that can't be easily inferred.

Player Aids: I'm going to have to laminate these as they really should have been on weightier stock, especially the Terrain chart and CG organiser given they will see the greatest wear and tear

Rules Booklet: Glossy but very nicely printed, full colour. The paper is however somewhat lightweight for a booklet that will be heavily handled. I did appreciate the interviews although my eyebrows were raised by the description of New Zealanders as non-bourgeois and the usual trope that New Zealand's rural population was much more significant numerically than it actually was.

An insignificant matter to non-Nzers but immensely important nowadays : Māori text uses correct macrons - really impressive to see this.

A couple of things that struck me on first read through. the way Haystacks are handled in regard to the actual battle experience as outlined by Jeffrey Plowman in his interview is subtle although I'm not sure that allowing German units to set up HIP in Haystacks locations marries with the way he describes how the NZ troops saw through the faux haystacks as a ruse (I'd limit it to concealed, especially with the Errata change of 19 December that removes the HS/SMC limitation on setup). But the modelling of the NZ tracer response is elegant.
I do like that the HASL dares to move away from the tried and established way of doing things in some aspects like Weather and Smoke. It will need some period of adjustment to bed in the differences but as I intend to immerse myself in the whole product over a period of time, it's less of a bugbear for me.
There are other historically based wrinkles (the HMGs reverting to MMGs once moved from initial locations etc). I think I might have included more AAMG-less Shermans and less 2/4/4 armed, but that's a subjective call on the frequency with which NZ armoured crews removed the .50 cals (frequently might be understating it a teensy bit). I was pleased to see the 81mm GrW Kurz make an appearance in ASL particularly given its range limitations.

Value for money:
Individually Subjective. If the subject matter is very much in your wheelhouse and you are expecting to play through every scenario then yeah I think there's enough there to satisfy you but it is right on the edge. If you are just viewing this as a typical HASL and the subject matter isn't leaping out at you, then I'd pass it by.
Normally most ASLers don't blink much at the cost of a premium product. But I did, NZD$320 including shipping is still a lot of money, particularly as I didn't have any exposure to previous AF products apart from reading the somewhat mixed reviews. I probably would have had to wait a fair bit to justify including it as part of a larger order from Derek in order to get the shipping down from the prohibitive single item cost. But someone very kindly gifted me a copy.

I expect to play through all the scenarios and attempt all four CG, but then again given the units involved it was always going to be a Grail item for me.

At least I have a couple of fellow NZ ASLers to get involved in playing this as well the donor who is getting CG dates.
 

ulrics

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Full Disclosure
I spent a lot of time playtesting and received a free copy.
Coming in somewhat late to this party (like a speeding glacier might, no doubt!), as I confess I don't spend time on GS. Don't get me wrong, I like it and appreciate it being here, just like I can't afford the time and expense of being a regular at any pub, however I am very grateful to all the regular customers keeping the place going.

Anyway I thought I'd just quote the opening verse by Ben, as I must confess to exactly the same disclosure. A lot of time playtesting, discussing rules, proofreading, and yes I did get a free copy at the end. :) I did my own rubbish unboxing videos on youtube if anyone can find them, good luck to you.

One detail on the map size: from memory I think map 1 is a few hexrows taller than maps 2-4, but that could just have been my impression.

More interesting videos (highly subjective of course) can be found of me at various locations around Orsogna, comparing the VASL map with the real town today, all on the https://www.facebook.com/AdvancingFire page. VASL maps because this was in June 2023 still during the playtesting and development stage, and the 'site surveys' helped us tweak and improve certain LOS and terrain features in key areas of the map. You see this is the love and care we put into it for you guys. ;-) Plus of course who wouldn't want an excuse to visit those hallowed hillocks? (Of course we would also have loved to survey the fields of Prokhrovka in person, but you can't have everything)

Ben did such an amazing job with his review (/writeup), not only technically but he had me in stitches throughout. Thank you for cheering up my evening! So other than quibble about one map size and do some video promos, what can I possibly add?

Favourite rule
Tank flipping. No not the Ethiopians vs Italian tankettes, that's another story. This is big beefy Shermans slipping and sliding all over the place on their way to and around the battlefield: records show they suffered horrendous losses in not just bogged but overturned tanks, despite moving along roads. The back country lanes of 1943 were not designed for mechanised traffic. Introducing a mechanism by which the terrain could attrition the tanks was fun, and it provides just that little bit of edge-of-your-seat tension simply nursing the tanks along to the front, or getting a mobile one to help a bogged one. You end up being good at the bogging/unbogging rules.

Favourite terrain feature
The two footbridges (there were many more in reality). This was the result of having the privilege of walking around town with the local historian Armando De Grandis, who brought certain features of the battle to life. Today you can still see how the main 'broadway' at the northern end of the town is tremendously wide; actually today the same space contains two roads with a park along the middle, back in '43 there was a sparsely tree lined boulevard down the centre with a strip of meadow down one side for the cattle markets. At the end closest to the centre, a narrow alleyway dropped down the eastern side and ran along the road: the houses facing the road had their front doors at the first floor, with footbridges across the alleyway, and the German Paras used the sunken alleyway as a hidden route to transfer units. Difficult to reflect this, however by placing some houses on the eastern side one level lower, with footbridges across to the road hexes, I think we achieved this little feature and you can skulk your units in bypass along there if you so wish. :)

Least favourite rule
In the interests of balance, what wasn't I so keen on? Maybe not so much a rule as a feature of the full CG: having to be patient! While I'm not a cardboard-squads-be-damned reckless charger, I do like to use the time available to make some progress. If terrain or enemy units prevent me from moving forward, I prefer to keep my cardboard busy digging, searching, clearing, anything really if it can help towards the end goal. In this game there are some situations (you will have to discover for yourself!) where you simply have to keep your troops covered and out of sight until the time is right. You need to coordinate carefully, timing is so important. A cagey German will watch your Kiwis start milling about in what you think is some reverse slope, at least out of LOS of the Germans squads, doing their searching, digging and clearing, then when you have presented a good density of Kiwis, all hell breaks loose from hidden HMG, 81 mm MTR and OBA slamming down and double breaking Kiwis left right and centre, only because the flanking Maoris weren't in position yet so all the German attention could be focused on one of your flanks. Painful. Timing is crucial, and sometimes the only right thing to do with some units is precisely nothing! It struck me as very different to many scenarios, and very realistic. But least favourite.

Least favourite terrain
OK so Sebi is going to hate me for this, but I think we are allowed to have different opinions. The 1.5 MF hedges. I always forgot about that extra .5, partly because there aren't actually that many hedges that it makes much difference. And as I don't have the rules handy, from memory I think they get a further .5 at night. Seriously thick hedges.

Someone mentioned no chrome was discarded: there definitely was, there were several things we considered, suggested, debated, tried, tested and discarded. Memory is fuzzy and I don't spend a lot of time remembering things that were thrown away, but more proscriptive setup rules for certain units spring to mind. Certain limitations on vehicles were considered unnecessary, as the situation and existing rules made some possible sleazes unlikely and it wasn't necessary to come up with SSRs to prevent them.

It was an eye-opener of a project, very different to Prokhorovka for the movement difficulties and the restrictive terrain, it definitely captures the difficult conditions that the fighting took place in. It was definitely not wine and sunshine in December '43!
 

Pitman

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Well written with interesting insights. For what it's worth, Mark Pitcavage (if I'm not mistaken) prefers to use the word "writeup" instead of "review." Advancing Fire is definitely offering the ASL world something fresh and different.
I use "write-up" for World of ASL entries rather than review because some of them are evaluations based on analysis, or a combination of that and limited play, rather than based on analysis and more extensive play, which I would argue is required to do a full review. By that definition, some of the World of ASL entries are actually true reviews, because I've had the opportunity to get behind the products' wheels and drive, but that is not true for all of the products. So, to be fair, I call my entries "write-ups" rather than reviews. I do not ask or advocate that others necessarily use the same terminology. It is just the terminology that I personally feel ethically comfortable with.
 

Pitman

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Let's take an example, ORS8, German placed line of defense, three slightly underrated German companies of an elite PzGren Regiment. Usually, in these cases, a platoon of the 4th company (heavy weapons) was mixed with each company. I think that the one HMG/one MMG per company is the minimum, then the three LMG (one more per each platoon, and there are 447 squads) is enough realistic. They had, as PZGren, one PSK per company (minimum) and a DC per company (minimum)... i really don't understand where is the error, i don't think the main argument should be the SE/SW ratio to be a cup or tea or less, 6 of the 21 SW have a ROF >= 2, German HMG become MMG when they are moved/dismantled. ROF dependent? Glad to know that you make so often 1 with the coloured die :)👍.
Here's your problem: many SW in ASL are already inherent in the game. In fact, most of them are. So SW counters should be uncommon, if not rare.
 

sebosebi

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Here's your problem: many SW in ASL are already inherent in the game. In fact, most of them are. So SW counters should be uncommon, if not rare.
I don't know, maybe it was your problem, not mine. I have always known that LMG (only) are mostly inherent to units. On the other hand, if I had not known this, I would not have put in that scenario only 9 LMGs but would have put in counters for the 52 LMGs previewed in the 1943 Grenadier Batallion neu Art gliederung, that was possibly matched by that elite PzGren Bn.
In an entrenched defense Germans moved many LMG teams along the outposts to deceive the advancing enemies about the orientation of the defense line, so LMG did not have always a role inside the gruppe, or in the area of the gruppe. And they did this with long range bursts because they imitated fixed MMG/HMG positions. This alone would be enough to justify the extra LMGs, but there would also be much more. And the scenario is very well balanced indeed and I am very happy with the reconstruction work done.
 
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