Snap Shot Question

lightspeed

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Gents,

Get out board 3. Unit A is in N7, unit B is in N3. Unit B moves (assault or otherwise) to N2. Can A take a snap shot at B along the N2/N3 hexside?

It's multiple choice, of course. But in the spirit of "show your work," I would ask that you explain your answer. Here are two possibilities:

Y: The wall does not block LOS, but adds a +2 DRM to the IFT roll.

N: The wall blocks LOS.

What do you folks think it is? My guess it's Y, but I don't know (or is that "I don't N?).

Indy
 

klasmalmstrom

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Gents,

Get out board 3. Unit A is in N7, unit B is in N3. Unit B moves (assault or otherwise) to N2. Can A take a snap shot at B along the N2/N3 hexside?

It's multiple choice, of course. But in the spirit of "show your work," I would ask that you explain your answer. Here are two possibilities:

Y: The wall does not block LOS, but adds a +2 DRM to the IFT roll.

N: The wall blocks LOS.

What do you folks think it is? My guess it's Y, but I don't know (or is that "I don't N?).
If I remember correctly, this type of situation was the discussed in an earlier thread some time ago (how long ago I can't remember) and I believe that a Perry Sez declared that there is a LOS.
 

Ole Boe

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Get out board 3. Unit A is in N7, unit B is in N3. Unit B moves (assault or otherwise) to N2. Can A take a snap shot at B along the N2/N3 hexside?

It's multiple choice, of course. But in the spirit of "show your work," I would ask that you explain your answer. Here are two possibilities:

Y: The wall does not block LOS, but adds a +2 DRM to the IFT roll.

N: The wall blocks LOS.

What do you folks think it is? My guess it's Y, but I don't know (or is that "I don't N?).
My answer is that I think it should be N, but the way the rule is worded now leads to an Y. Klas is also correct that there is a Perry sez. saying this. The reasoning is that A8.15 saying "however a wall/hedge/SMOKE/rubble hexside/spine of a hex being entered/ exited can modify a Snap Shot if crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside", and this is being interpreted that those terrain types never blocks LOS even if other rules would mandate it, but only modifies the attack.

In this specific case, the wall hexside is being part of the hex exited, thus fall under this rule.



Now, there are tons of problems with this rule, especially with the quoted sentence above, and Perry has hinted at a rewrite, which I support. But until then I follow the Perry sez.
 

Fort

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B9.2 and the example on page B8 make it very clear that the answer is Yes there is a Snap Shot possibility.
 

Ole Boe

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B9.2 and the example on page B8 make it very clear that the answer is Yes there is a Snap Shot possibility.
No, they don't. According to those, the LOS would be blocked. The only thing that allows the shot, is that A8.15 supercedes the B9 rules.

The reason that B9.2 tells us that the LOS is blocked, is that the moving unit is considered in the hex it enters for all purposes (A8.15, C.5). Thus the unit is in N2 when the Snap shot gets declared. Since the wall hexside in question is between N3 and N4, none of them being the firer or target hex. So B9.2 saying "Wall and hedge hexside are Half-Level obstacles to same-level LOS (A6.21) unless the wall/hedge hexside is part of the viewing/target hex." would apply and block the LOS.

A good example is if the shot from N7 was instead taken vs a unit bypassing N2 along the N2-N3 hexside (the same hexside the Snap Shot is declared vs).

Since the unit is bypassing in N2, the N3-N4 wall blocks LOS to the N2-N3 hexside. The same would be true for the Snap Shot if not A8.15 talked about walls modifying the snap shot if part of the exit/entry hex.


The B9.21 example does not cover this situation either. It shows an allowed Snap Shot, but vs a unit which enters Z3 when the hedge is along Y3-Z3. Since the unit is then considerd in Z3 for all purposes, it is natural that the Y3-Z3 hedge doesn't block the LOS.

But the original question is for when the unit exits the hex containing the wall/hedge hexside, and in that case, the unit is no longer in that hex.
 

Fort

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No, they don't. According to those, the LOS would be blocked. The only thing that allows the shot, is that A8.15 supercedes the B9 rules.

The reason that B9.2 tells us that the LOS is blocked, is that the moving unit is considered in the hex it enters for all purposes (A8.15, C.5). Thus the unit is in N2 when the Snap shot gets declared. Since the wall hexside in question is between N3 and N4, none of them being the firer or target hex. So B9.2 saying "Wall and hedge hexside are Half-Level obstacles to same-level LOS (A6.21) unless the wall/hedge hexside is part of the viewing/target hex." would apply and block the LOS.

A good example is if the shot from N7 was instead taken vs a unit bypassing N2 along the N2-N3 hexside (the same hexside the Snap Shot is declared vs).

Since the unit is bypassing in N2, the N3-N4 wall blocks LOS to the N2-N3 hexside. The same would be true for the Snap Shot if not A8.15 talked about walls modifying the snap shot if part of the exit/entry hex.


The B9.21 example does not cover this situation either. It shows an allowed Snap Shot, but vs a unit which enters Z3 when the hedge is along Y3-Z3. Since the unit is then considerd in Z3 for all purposes, it is natural that the Y3-Z3 hedge doesn't block the LOS.

But the original question is for when the unit exits the hex containing the wall/hedge hexside, and in that case, the unit is no longer in that hex.
Yes, they do.

A8.15 Says "...may claim a Snap Shot if it can trace a LOS to an entire hexside (even if that hex side is part of a blind hex that is out of the firer's LOS)...

this combined with:

B9.2 A wall/hedge hexside never blocks LOS to any portion of its own hex even in the case of Snap Shots or vs Bypassing units on the opposite side of that hex.

and the example of page B8.

means....


Using page B7 illusitration:

the 6-2-8 in 6Z7 could be shot at with a Snap Shot by the 8-3-8 in 6X6 as it moves to 6AA8, as this meets all the requirements/restrictions of the pertinent rules sections.

LOS can be traced through the hedge to the entire Z7/AA8 hexside because it is traced through the hedge that is part of the same hex as the Z7/AA8 hexside, allowed by B9.2.

A hexside is a PORTION of the hex who's side it forms as defined in the index.

Hex(the area inside the six hexsides which compose a hex, including those hexsides and their vertices)

LOS to Hex AA8 is irrelevant for this as laid out in A8.15.

...unless I am totally missing something..and that is quite possible, I assure you. :D
 
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Ole Boe

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Yes, they do.
No, they don't :p

Before I continue the discussion, I will highlight C.5 - which is a top runner for "Most misplaced rule award". According to this, a unit is always in one specific hex even when LOS is drawn to a vertex or hexside. In the case of snapshot, it is in the hex entered. And this is true for all purposes, including range of enemy units, possible PBF/TPBF, CA etc. With this in mind, we can continue...


A8.15 Says "...may claim a Snap Shot if it can trace a LOS to an entire hexside (even if that hex side is part of a blind hex that is out of the firer's LOS)...
Correct, but "blind hex" is what you get from firing over an obstacle. Not that it matters much, as my point is that the LOS would be blocked if not for A8.15.


this combined with:

B9.2 A wall/hedge hexside never blocks LOS to any portion of its own hex even in the case of Snap Shots or vs Bypassing units on the opposite side of that hex.
And this sentence has nothing to do with the example we discuss. I know it is very easy and common to think so, but still, it has nothing to do with what we discuss.

The reason is that B9.2 says that the wall/hedge never blocks LOS to any portion of its own hex. But we discuss an example where the wall is between N3 and N4, while the unit is in N2. So even if the Snapshot draws LOS to the N2-N3 hexside, it does so to the N2-side of that hexside - thus not to the wall's own hex.




As a proof of this important distinction, assume the unit entered N2 from N3, but now using bypass along the N2-O3 hexside. You want to attack it from N7, at the N2-N3-O3 vertex, which happens to be part of the hexside we're discussing for the snapshot. However an attack vs the N2-N3-O3 vertex is blocked by the N3-N4 wall hexside, because the unit is in N2 even though LOS is drawn to a vertex of the wall's hex.
This is not only something I say, but it is also explicitely stated in the third sentence of the B9.21 example.

But lo and behold, while LOS is blocked to the N2-N3-O3 vertex, LOS seems to be free to the entire hexside which covers that vertex - due to A8.15, but contary to B9.2.



Using page B7 illusitration:


the 6-2-8 in 6Z7 could be shot at with a Snap Shot by the 8-3-8 in 6X6 as it moves to 6AA8, as this meets all the requirements/restrictions of the pertinent rules sections.
Assume the "offending" part of A8.15 didn't exist, the answer would be that the Y7-Z7 hedge would block the LOS to the AA8-Z7 hexside, if (and only if) the target unit was considered to be in AA8, and not in Z7. So this is true for a unit bypassing the AA8-Z7 hexside in AA8 (assume the grain was woods), and would be true for a snapshot when a unit entered AA8 - if not for the (somewhat ambigious and broken) sentence in A8.15.

LOS can be traced through the hedge to the entire Z7/AA8 hexside because it is traced through the hedge that is part of the same hex as the Z7/AA8 hexside, allowed by B9.2.
It can be traced to the Z7-AA8 hexside, but not to the AA8-Z7 hexside. The hexside is the same, but the target hex is different - that is this is what C.5 gives us, and it is important for many rules, one of them B9.2, but I accept that A8.15 overturns this.

Another example: Assume Z7 had some in-hex terrain not mentioned by A8.15.
First, assume it was Orchard. Since Orchard only adds Hindrance for fire through its hex, the hindrance is added vs the AA8-Z7 hexside snapshot if the unit moves from Z7 to AA8, but not if it moves from AA8 to Z7.
Second, assume it was Jungle. Since Jungle adds TEM for fire to its own hex and blocks LOS through its hex, the snapshot is blocked if the unit moves from Z7 to AA8, but uses Jungle TEM if it moves from AA8 to Z7.



A hexside is a PORTION of the hex who's side it forms as defined in the index.

Hex(the area inside the six hexsides which compose a hex, including those hexsides and their vertices)

LOS to Hex AA8 is irrelevant for this as laid out in A8.15.
I agree to all of this (almost), but LOS to AA8 is relevant for B9.2 and most other rules.
 

apbills

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Based on the wording of A8.15 the answer is Yes. The wall would modify the attack as well.

A8.15 Any unit wishing to make a Small-Arms/MG Defensive First Fire attack may claim a Snap Shot if it can trace a LOS to an entire hexside (even if that hexside is part of a Blind hex) that was crossed by the moving unit in entering a on-board hex (even if the center dot of that hex is out of the firer's LOS)

So even though C.5C states that the target is in the out of LOS Location, A8.15 allows the shot since by B9.2 the hexside is still in LOS.

B9.2 "A wall/hedge never blocks LOS to any portion of its own hex even in the case of Snap Shots or vs Bypassing units on the opposite side of that hex [EXC: 9.21]. "

This part of B9.2 is exactly the situation being discussed.

A8.15, B9.2 and C.5C are all in sync and support the Yes answer.

The reason this language ("however a wall/ hedge/ SMOKE/ rubble hexside/spine of the hex being entered/exited can modify a Snap Shot if crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside") is to make sure the wall TEM is taken into account since the rules allow the snap shot and without that qualifier would not be allowed.

Ole, I am not sure what needs to be "clarified" in these rules.
 

Ole Boe

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Based on the wording of A8.15 the answer is Yes. The wall would modify the attack as well.
I agree with that. This discussion has strayed a bit, discussing what the answer would be if A8.15 had not said "a wall/hedge/SMOKE/rubble hexside/spine of a hex being entered/ exited can modify a Snap Shot if crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside)", but since A8.15 does say this, it supercedes any general rule, and therefore allows the shot.

However:

A8.15 Any unit wishing to make a Small-Arms/MG Defensive First Fire attack may claim a Snap Shot if it can trace a LOS to an entire hexside (even if that hexside is part of a Blind hex) that was crossed by the moving unit in entering a on-board hex (even if the center dot of that hex is out of the firer's LOS)
Agreed. The LOS to the hex center dot is irrelevant, since LOS to the hexside is the only thing that matters (A6.12 & C.5).

So even though C.5C states that the target is in the out of LOS Location, A8.15 allows the shot since by B9.2 the hexside is still in LOS.
No. By B9.2, the N2 side of the hexside is out of LOS - only the N3 side of the hexside is in LOS, and the unit occupies the N2 side of the hexside. Check the third sentence of the B9.21 example for a confirmation of this.

This is moot though, due to the above-quoted A8.15 sentence that overturns this - but only for snap shots. It is still true for bypass and road LOS since they don't have such a sentence.

B9.2 "A wall/hedge never blocks LOS to any portion of its own hex even in the case of Snap Shots or vs Bypassing units on the opposite side of that hex [EXC: 9.21]. "
This part of B9.2 is exactly the situation being discussed.
No. We are discussing LOS to N2. Not to the center dot of N2, but to the N2-N3 hexside of N2. And since the N2 side of that hexside is not a portion of N3, the quoted part of B9.2 doesn't apply.

If you were correct, the third sentence of the B9.21 example would be incorrect - and I trust that example over you ;)


The reason this language ("however a wall/ hedge/ SMOKE/ rubble hexside/spine of the hex being entered/exited can modify a Snap Shot if crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside") is to make sure the wall TEM is taken into account since the rules allow the snap shot and without that qualifier would not be allowed.
Are you saying that without this qualifier the LOS would be blocked? That is just what I have been saying all along. If not, I must ask you to explain it again, because then I didn't understand you.


Ole, I am not sure what needs to be "clarified" in these rules.
It was a long, long thread on the exact same topic a couple of years ago. The Perry sez. mentioned comes from this discussion. I'm too lazy, but you can probably find it.
 

apbills

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Are you saying that without this qualifier the LOS would be blocked? That is just what I have been saying all along. If not, I must ask you to explain it again, because then I didn't understand you.
It appears we are stating the same thing. Without the "entered/exited" language in the Snap Shot rule, the LOS would be blocked to the N2-N3 hexside since the target hex is N3, not N2.
 
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