SN in CC from a tank in Bypass question

JoeArthur

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So,

I have got this wrong and would like to know where please:

A 4-6-7 Russian squad was in melee with a German half squad in a building. Outside the building was a Stug in bypass.

CC is sequential because of the vehicle in the hex. Russian goes first and eliminates the German half squad. As the infantry have not attacked the tank it cannot attack back in CC using its SN? No turret so it is never going to be able to use its coaxial in attack (I suspect that bit is wrong.......)?

If the Stug could use its SN is there still no TEM to the roll? It just seemed odd that with the tank in bypass of the building it could attack with no TEM. I suppose the infantry are considered to have left the building to attack the tank and therefore get hit with no TEM?

Many thanks for any help.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I think the StuG can attack with the sN...

A11.622:
"...but only during the CCPh after the AFV or its Personnel Escort has been attacked in that CCPh (11.31) [EXC: an AFV may fire a Nahverteidigungswaffe before being attacked if it qualifies as the Ambusher; 11.4]..."

...as I think the HS would count as "Personnel Escort"...
 
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STAVKA

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I think the StuG can attack with the sN...

A11.622:
"...but only during the CCPh after the AFV or its Personnel Escort has been attacked in that CCPh..."

...as I think the HS would count as "Personnel Escort"...
Provided the German HS was not broken/pinned/withdrawing.

If the German HS was attacked by the Russian squad with a DR of 12 and infiltrated out of the Melee, can the StuG now attack the 447 squad with its Sn?
 
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EagleIV

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Provided the German HS was not broken/pinned/withdrawing.

If the German HS was attacked by the Russian squad with a DR of 12 and infiltrated out of the Melee, can the StuG now attack the 447 squad with its Sn?
The escorting HS (provided it wasn't pined, etc.) was still attacked and therefore the StuG could use the sN.
 

STAVKA

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The escorting HS (provided it wasn't pined, etc.) was still attacked and therefore the StuG could use the sN.
The answer must be no, the StuG escort is withdrawing, StuG cannot attack the 447 squad with its Sn-weapon, the rule is clear on this point.
 

Eagle4ty

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I believe the status of the "escort" is determined at the start of the CCPh and not in mini steps as the CCPh unfolds for those units engaged in CC in that location. (But I'm not entirely sure).
 

volgaG68

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I think the StuG can attack with the sN...

A11.622:
"...but only during the CCPh after the AFV or its Personnel Escort has been attacked in that CCPh..."

...as I think the HS would count as "Personnel Escort"...
Good catch, and all the more reason I am due for another re-read of the rules. Used to do it annually, but haven't for a number of years now. I knew about the AFV part, but forgot all about the part I highlighted in red.
 

STAVKA

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I believe the status of the "escort" is determined at the start of the CCPh and not in mini steps as the CCPh unfolds for those units engaged in CC in that location. (But I'm not entirely sure).
A11.51 make it clear, what seemed to be an escort can choose to not act as an escort at all when it choose to be in the act of withdrawal instead.

If two Russian 447 squads were locked in meele and the HS withdrawels is it still an Escort, for the StuG, or was it ever?
 

ScottRomanowski

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I think that, since A11.2 and A11.3 says units must declare if they're withdrawing at the start of the CCPh, prior to declaration of attacks. So if the German player declared the HS was Withdrawing it wouldn't count as a Personnel escort, and the StuG couldn't attack with its sN.
 

JoeArthur

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I think the StuG can attack with the sN...

A11.622:
"...but only during the CCPh after the AFV or its Personnel Escort has been attacked in that CCPh..."

...as I think the HS would count as "Personnel Escort"...
Many thanks once again Klas. If we ever meet in person remind me to buy you a beer :)
 

Stewart

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The answer must be no, the StuG escort is withdrawing, StuG cannot attack the 447 squad with its Sn-weapon, the rule is clear on this point.
It's not withdrawing, it exfiltrates...

Back to the AFV...
SO if you DON'T attack the AFV if it's alone IN CC....then it can't use sN?
Is that dumbAF or what?
 

STAVKA

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It's not withdrawing, it exfiltrates...

Back to the AFV...
SO if you DON'T attack the AFV if it's alone IN CC....then it can't use sN?
Is that dumbAF or what?
That too.

If the StuG Ambush the enemy it can attack non-attackers too.
 

Stewart

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So, if the sN vehicle attacks first in ambush or otherwise, Does the opponent have to predesignate his attacks to allow the sN to be able to be used?

"uh...No I choose not to attack...You may attack me with your 2 aamg," says the 628
 

klasmalmstrom

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So, if the sN vehicle attacks first in ambush or otherwise, Does the opponent have to predesignate his attacks to allow the sN to be able to be used?
Again, see the rules quote above - it says "AFTER...have been attacked" - not "will be attacked".


Footnote 16:
"16. 11.622 CLOSE DEFENSE WEAPON SYSTEM: The 92 mm grenade projector is limited to use only after being attacked in CC to force players to use it realistically as the CC defense mechanism it was, rather than as another tool in a tank’s offensive arsenal which might encourage a player to go hunting CC opportunities with his tank—something a real tank commander took great pains to avoid. By requiring that the tank or its accompanying escort be attacked first, we guarantee that the projector is being used against assaulting troops—not to seek out hidden defenders in their holes."
 
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