Really Useful Boards

bprobst

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That's not a canal/small river, it's a very big river. Not very useful for what I had in mind.

It also has a big design problem. It's alternately one hex wide and two hexes wide, in a regular or semi-regular pattern, while it's pretending to be a nearly consistent width. You should not draw maps on how they look, but instead draw them as how they play (and adjust the look to match).
 

bprobst

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Yea, canal overlays are possible, but will they be really used that much?
Non-existent overlays can't be used at all. I thought the discussion was about stimulating designers? "You can't have that" isn't much of a stimulus.

For example, there's a long stream overlay that also has similar characteristics - it stretches from one end of the 9x22 board to the other side yet hasn't been used yet.
I'm guessing that the main reason it hasn't been used is that it doesn't exist. What overlay are you thinking of? No stream overlays are longer than about 15 hexes (e.g., St3) and all of the stream overlays have the problem that they meander.

So, to have a decent rural canal - you probably need a full rural canal board.
No, you need some lengths of canal overlays, just like railroads. Also, just like railroads, you don't necessarily want your canal to reach from one edge of the length of the board to another -- sometimes you'll want it running directly across the short width, or even better, running diagonally. The point is flexibility leading to creativity. River boards often look cool, but they aren't flexible.
 

DonWPetros

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DP: "For example, there's a long stream overlay that also has similar characteristics - it stretches from one end of the 9x22 board to the other side yet hasn't been used yet".

You: I'm guessing that the main reason it hasn't been used is that it doesn't exist. What overlay are you thinking of? No stream overlays are longer than about 15 hexes (e.g., St3) and all of the stream overlays have the problem that they meander.
It exists and I have it in my hand. I made it for MMP and it fits board 51. In fact, MMP wanted to originally have it on board 51 but decided to use it instead as a lengthwise overlay. Unfortunately, there is no # or letter to define it located on the back. Can't recall what mod it came with. Someone else may want to jump in to confirm which mod?

Here's a couple concepts: 1) rural River, 2) rural Canal
 

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footsteps

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It exists and I have it in my hand. I made it for MMP and it fits board 51. In fact, MMP wanted to originally have it on board 51 but decided to use it instead as a lengthwise overlay. Unfortunately, there is no # or letter to define it located on the back. Can't recall what mod it came with. Someone else may want to jump in to confirm which mod?

Here's a couple concepts: 1) rural River, 2) rural Canal
Looking at bd51, I can't imagine how a stream would fit within that urban blight. I haven't heard comments about this overlay when various modules have come out, so it may still be "in the system" at the moment.
 

bprobst

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It exists and I have it in my hand.
No you don't. What, perhaps, you do have in your hand is overlay Rv1, which came with AoO. Per the name, it's a river. It could maybe represent a ridiculously large canal, although, being ridiculously large, it would be a really poor example of same. In no-one's world could it represent a stream.

Your concept artwork seems fine, if what you're looking for is more inflexible river boards. They could have their place ... but any board can have a place. I'm not sure that those boards, by themselves, would trigger any great level of designer fever. I could be wrong though! I'd never say "don't do a new board" if that new board has a valid concept as the point of its existence. It's just that a new board is not always the best solution to a terrain problem.
 

Robin Reeve

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An interesting Canal overlay would be along a column (Q1- to Q10), as it would be less sinuous than following a grid number.
One could design a double-long one, so it spans two geoboards.

Other idea : a real "old town" (or old village), with much more dense buildings and most roads being narrow ones.
 

DonWPetros

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Looking at bd51, I can't imagine how a stream would fit within that urban blight. I haven't heard comments about this overlay when various modules have come out, so it may still be "in the system" at the moment.
You can't imagine this because you're not trying hard enough. Place the hex that indicates '1' on board 51 E7 - pretty obvious. I don't get 'special overlays' from MMP - I get the modules just like you or anyone. I have this overlay in hand now. I had hoped designers would in fact use it with board 51, but like you, they may not even know this possibility exists. It creates a 2 hex wide river inside a dense city.
 

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DonWPetros

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No you don't. What, perhaps, you do have in your hand is overlay Rv1, which came with AoO. Per the name, it's a river. It could maybe represent a ridiculously large canal, although, being ridiculously large, it would be a really poor example of same. In no-one's world could it represent a stream.

Your concept artwork seems fine, if what you're looking for is more inflexible river boards. They could have their place ... but any board can have a place. I'm not sure that those boards, by themselves, would trigger any great level of designer fever. I could be wrong though! I'd never say "don't do a new board" if that new board has a valid concept as the point of its existence. It's just that a new board is not always the best solution to a terrain problem.
Yes, it is a River - not a Stream. My point isn't whether it's one or the other - the point is that such exists and can represent a 'waterway' of 2 hex width.

I have to say I have little interest myself in more River / Stream / Canal boards. Mainly, I started the thread to discuss 'useful boards that are lacking'. I think there are many. Some guys offered the comment that Canals / Rivers are lacking. I'm not here to dispute their opinion on that - I can see some need there, just not that much. The frequency of usage so far in published scenarios with Rivers/Canals/Streams is relatively little to my count*. The usage of other kinds of board - ie. Open ground boards, particularly Board 4 (due to both age and versatile openess) and others, is much greater, hence the likelihood that we could use more open boards. My personal view of our range of Village boards is that they also are wanting - due either to overusage (ie. B3), awkward layout (ie. B48), or unrealistic layout (ie. B12).

I talk with and have talked with lots of designers - the main guys who work on these. Ask them yourself whether new boards encourage design.

*I've counted the frequency of all MMP boards used in MMP scenarios
 

Actionjick

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I don't think there's enough inherent use for more canal boards, but I'd like to see canal overlays, with boards that you could put them on where they wouldn't look weird.

By canals I mean straight or nearly straight waterways that are only 1 hex wide (like railroad overlays). Bd23 is the only canal depiction in the game (at this time), and is very urban; the boards with water obstacles that are not so urban tend to have 2-hex (or wider) rivers that are not very canal-ish.
Overlays make sense to me if done correctly.

I've pet peeved about this before but no reason not to continue the tradition. Bitd they came out with the board with the airfield on it. Included in the module were overlays, including one to cover up the airfield. This was silly to me. Why didn't they just print the airfield cover up overlay as an airfield overlay? Obviously could be used on many boards then.

Btw I don't recall using the airfield in a lot of scenarios.
 
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DonWPetros

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Overlays make sense to me if done correctly.
I agree that overlays can be good. Most guys don't like to fuss with them though - me too. Large OLs, like those numbered ones in CoB seem best to me - easy to apply.

This brings up one good way to expand the use of the existing boards (including B14): publish large (ie. CoB type large, straight-cut) overlays that would fit nicely on them. There are too many good examples of how/where this could be used to expand use of existing boards and create fresh new boards and to cover up existing mistakes (ie. B14). Maximize the existing board mix use.

[Here's another outside idea altogether, one to likely get dissed by some - redesign and publish revised versions of the few existing geoboards that have been overused (ie. 1,2,3,4). The revisions wouldn't be too great that you couldn't swap the revised one for the old one and play the scenarios anew. Older scenarios using older boards have been played to death, with LOS memorized. Easy fix.]
 

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You can't imagine this because you're not trying hard enough. Place the hex that indicates '1' on board 51 E7 - pretty obvious. I don't get 'special overlays' from MMP - I get the modules just like you or anyone. I have this overlay in hand now. I had hoped designers would in fact use it with board 51, but like you, they may not even know this possibility exists. It creates a 2 hex wide river inside a dense city.
Looks cool.

I was trying to imagine a 1 hex wide Stream, not the River overlay.

I also have board designed to accommodate the River overlay (among others), with a couple of scenarios for it.
 

DonWPetros

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Theater specific boards - such as 54, 55 (Normandy), and 56, 57 (Russia) - have been popular with designers. I think that more could be done with theater specific boards, including boards that better represent Italian terrain.

But the biggest omission so far IMO - East Front boards. Most of WWII happened there. Most of our ASL scenarios and terrain are West Front. Board design pushes scenario design. More ETO boards are needed I think.
 

Robin Reeve

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Here's another outside idea altogether, one to likely get dissed by some - redesign and publish revised versions of the few existing geoboards that have been overused (ie. 1,2,3,4).
The 10z and 17z boards were the direct effect of a contest of modifications of boards 10 and 17, which was organized on GS.
It followed a quite similar idea as yours.
 

footsteps

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This brings up one good way to expand the use of the existing boards (including B14): publish large (ie. CoB type large, straight-cut) overlays that would fit nicely on them. There are too many good examples of how/where this could be used to expand use of existing boards and create fresh new boards and to cover up existing mistakes (ie. B14). Maximize the existing board mix use.
This was something I did with my SPDE (Solutions to Problems that Don't Exist) River overlays for boards 1-6, 9-15. On a smaller scale, I made Mountain overlays that allowed the hills of 2, 15, & 50 connect to each other over the board edges.

21328

21329
 
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