RB

[Oberst Hausser]

I have no idea what source the designers chose to use as starting OB for RB...

Too few infantry on each side by a factor of x2 . ( Possibly x 2.5 for R)
Too few Conscripts ( R should be 40% Conscripts) on Day 1.

The main issue is that both sides do not have enough MMC/ SW to form any reserve. By having x 2 MMC numbers there would be be more options.

VotG is the best by allocating force structure that is far more "considered".

Lastly , OBA rules in RB are far to restricting ( not talking about chit draw) for example HOW does one land an OBA inside a factory ? Ohh that never happened...

The more you read the history the more bizarre this is.

 

[sswann]

Considering that RB was the FIRST attempt at campaign games for ASL, I believe that they did VERY WELL.
Having played RB campaigns, I found that it IS possible to have a reserve component set up, specially with respect to SW.

In a CG I reserved all mortars so that during the last day of the CG, EVERY open ground hex that the Germans had to cross was targeted with a mortar. Oh... the Germans lost in all that open ground with mortar -2 acquisition.

If it needs improvement, then please have-at-it! Another CG for RB would be welcome.

 

[Craig Benn]

Red Barricades is quite fun the first few dates with smaller OBs. Later dates with too many SWs it gets very dull and repetitive and dominated by kill stacks.

Starting with double infantry would get to that point too quickly. Plus ASL doesn't really model how difficult it is to attack in an urban setting - so having realistic OBs is moot.

 

[FrankH.]

I have no idea what source the designers chose to use as starting OB for RB...

Too few infantry on each side by a factor of x2 . ( Possibly x 2.5 for R)
Too few Conscripts ( R should be 40% Conscripts) on Day 1.

The main issue is that both sides do not have enough MMC/ SW to form any reserve. By having x 2 MMC numbers there would be be more options.

VotG is the best by allocating force structure that is far more "considered".

Lastly , OBA rules in RB are far to restricting ( not talking about chit draw) for example HOW does one land an OBA inside a factory ? Ohh that never happened...

The more you read the history the more bizarre this is.

Trying to understand what you are saying here. Are you referring to the Oct. 17 scenario? On that date the German is given 2 companies of infantry and the Russian is given 3 companies. The German is also given 15 CPP with which he could purchase 2 more rifle companies, or one more of the other companies, plus...many other options. The Russian is also given 8 CPP with which he could easily purchase 2 more infantry companies in reserve, or, if you want, 2 militia (conscripts) companies for normal on-map setup, thus bringing the Russians up to 40% conscripts!

I suppose one might consider rearranging the Oct. 17 Russian given OB, exchanging the two of the three given two rifle companies and/or the one SMG company for two on-board setup conscript companies, in order to force a larger percentage of conscipts into the Russian OB. (In this case, in compensation, add 6 CPP (edit: probably 5 CPP instead of 6 if the SMG coy is removed) to the Russians, to use for purchases of other RGs?)

As for artillery into factories, one only needs a LOS to a non-interior factory hex, and some chit draws. Or use a rocket barrage which extends 2 hexes in each direction of the AR, and may even scatter more fully into the factory complex itself.

Most of the damage you see at the factories (and everywhere on the mapboard) at the start of the campaign (Oct.17) was due to weeks of bombing from aircraft, not from artillery. It is true that in the RB CGs there is no bombardment RG that the German is allowed as an option. A bombardment might attack hexes all over the place. And there could be "more" German OBA per scenario allowed, but as is now it's limited to two modules "in action" (see the rules carefully for what this means in practice) per scenario date.

One last point. If you want a "reserve", or more infantry, pick an idle initiative chit. Then get more CPP and purchase more of whatever you want. True an idle chit is NA for the Oct. 17th date. Historically at that time the Germans thought they had the advantage and were trying to rush the Barricady (actually this happened late in the afternoon on the 16th, not the 17th, but...!)

Edit: Just to be clear I am not necessarily proposing anything in a general sense, or disagreeing with any ideas (though I don't see a basis for the idea that =>40% Russians must be conscripts, but who knows?). I am just indicating that between two players if there is enough agreement then some of the house rules I suggested (or others) could be tried.

 

[Zajuts149]

I have no idea what source the designers chose to use as starting OB for RB...

Too few infantry on each side by a factor of x2 . ( Possibly x 2.5 for R)
Too few Conscripts ( R should be 40% Conscripts) on Day 1.

The main issue is that both sides do not have enough MMC/ SW to form any reserve. By having x 2 MMC numbers there would be be more options.

VotG is the best by allocating force structure that is far more "considered".

Lastly , OBA rules in RB are far to restricting ( not talking about chit draw) for example HOW does one land an OBA inside a factory ? Ohh that never happened...

The more you read the history the more bizarre this is.

I would love to see a "re-imagined" OOB for RB, more in the line of VotG. I would like to have the more powerful infantry units like Sturm coys and Pionier coys be more like OVHS Lehr units, or VotG armour, where they are subject to recall, and can come back in play.
For that matter, I wouldn't mind having a full RF CG starting on Oct 17th(16th?), and/or Oct 23rd.

 

[Oberst Hausser]

Trying to understand what you are saying here. Are you referring to the Oct. 17 scenario? On that date the German is given 2 companies of infantry and the Russian is given 3 companies. The German is also given 15 CPP with which he could purchase 2 more rifle companies, or one more of the other companies, plus...many other options. The Russian is also given 8 CPP with which he could easily purchase 2 more infantry companies in reserve, or, if you want, 2 militia (conscripts) companies for normal on-map setup, thus bringing the Russians up to 40% conscripts!

I suppose one might consider rearranging the Oct. 17 Russian given OB, exchanging the two of the three given two rifle companies and/or the one SMG company for two on-board setup conscript companies, in order to force a larger percentage of conscipts into the Russian OB. (In this case, in compensation, add 6 CPP (edit: probably 5 CPP instead of 6 if the SMG coy is removed) to the Russians, to use for purchases of other RGs?)

As for artillery into factories, one only needs a LOS to a non-interior factory hex, and some chit draws. Or use a rocket barrage which extends 2 hexes in each direction of the AR, and may even scatter more fully into the factory complex itself.

Most of the damage you see at the factories (and everywhere on the mapboard) at the start of the campaign (Oct.17) was due to weeks of bombing from aircraft, not from artillery. It is true that in the RB CGs there is no bombardment RG that the German is allowed as an option. A bombardment might attack hexes all over the place. And there could be "more" German OBA per scenario allowed, but as is now it's limited to two modules "in action" (see the rules carefully for what this means in practice) per scenario date.

One last point. If you want a "reserve", or more infantry, pick an idle initiative chit. Then get more CPP and purchase more of whatever you want. True an idle chit is NA for the Oct. 17th date. Historically at that time the Germans thought they had the advantage and were trying to rush the Barricady (actually this happened late in the afternoon on the 16th, not the 17th, but...!)

Edit: Just to be clear I am not necessarily proposing anything in a general sense, or disagreeing with any ideas (though I don't see a basis for the idea that =>40% Russians must be conscripts, but who knows?). I am just indicating that between two players if there is enough agreement then some of the house rules I suggested (or others) could be tried.

 

[Oberst Hausser]

Did you ever do a ASL mod called Burden of Command ? Just wondering.

Second, the whole RB game is flawed not because its a first effort but because nothing has been done since !!

VoTG is the only CG that has taken placement and OB seriously and remains so far unique because of it .

After 30 years its NOT too difficult to REFORM the CG that takes into account such information.

My idea would be to have "blocks" ( map areas) where some units MUST ( including types) be and a wildcard of extras
based on CCP comprising of say 25% of the entire OB on the day. These blocks could also be say 3 of 5 and the other 2 could
have only wildcards - or not used at all - or wildcards could be added to predetermined blocks..

This would maintain the first 4 days (17th - 21st) so that the HISTORIC battle could be enacted.

VoTG is the only structure that achieved this so is the basis for any alteration.

 

[Oberst Hausser]

Trying to understand what you are saying here. Are you referring to the Oct. 17 scenario? On that date the German is given 2 companies of infantry and the Russian is given 3 companies. The German is also given 15 CPP with which he could purchase 2 more rifle companies, or one more of the other companies, plus...many other options. The Russian is also given 8 CPP with which he could easily purchase 2 more infantry companies in reserve, or, if you want, 2 militia (conscripts) companies for normal on-map setup, thus bringing the Russians up to 40% conscripts!

I suppose one might consider rearranging the Oct. 17 Russian given OB, exchanging the two of the three given two rifle companies and/or the one SMG company for two on-board setup conscript companies, in order to force a larger percentage of conscipts into the Russian OB. (In this case, in compensation, add 6 CPP (edit: probably 5 CPP instead of 6 if the SMG coy is removed) to the Russians, to use for purchases of other RGs?)

As for artillery into factories, one only needs a LOS to a non-interior factory hex, and some chit draws. Or use a rocket barrage which extends 2 hexes in each direction of the AR, and may even scatter more fully into the factory complex itself.

Most of the damage you see at the factories (and everywhere on the mapboard) at the start of the campaign (Oct.17) was due to weeks of bombing from aircraft, not from artillery. It is true that in the RB CGs there is no bombardment RG that the German is allowed as an option. A bombardment might attack hexes all over the place. And there could be "more" German OBA per scenario allowed, but as is now it's limited to two modules "in action" (see the rules carefully for what this means in practice) per scenario date.

One last point. If you want a "reserve", or more infantry, pick an idle initiative chit. Then get more CPP and purchase more of whatever you want. True an idle chit is NA for the Oct. 17th date. Historically at that time the Germans thought they had the advantage and were trying to rush the Barricady (actually this happened late in the afternoon on the 16th, not the 17th, but...!)

Edit: Just to be clear I am not necessarily proposing anything in a general sense, or disagreeing with any ideas (though I don't see a basis for the idea that =>40% Russians must be conscripts, but who knows?). I am just indicating that between two players if there is enough agreement then some of the house rules I suggested (or others) could be tried.

No I am not tinkering at the edges I mean to completely restructure the first 4 days to a VoTG format....

So much so that the CCP would take a different form on those days.

 

[sswann]

Well then...
Design what you want and publish it to the ASL world.