Pushing and Low Ammo

[Andy Bagley]

A crew, possibly assisted by other MMC, attempts to push a Gun and chooses to place a Low Ammo counter on it to get the -2 DRM from Table C10.3. What happens if they then want to push the Gun again in a subsequent MPh? Does the already-placed Low Ammo counter give another -2 DRM, can a second Low Ammo counter be placed, or is second use of that -2 DRM not allowed? (I've looked but can't find any answer, sorry if I've missed something.)

 

[sdennis]

Logic says a low ammo counter is a low ammo counter no matter when you push it IMHO

 

[BattleSchool]

A crew, possibly assisted by other MMC, attempts to push a Gun and chooses to place a Low Ammo counter on it to get the -2 DRM from Table C10.3. What happens if they then want to push the Gun again in a subsequent MPh?

Once placed, a Low Ammo counter remains on a Gun until it's eliminated. Therefore, the -2 DRM continues to apply to any subsequent Manhandling DR.

The C10.3 Table is simply telling you that the Low Ammo counter must be placed on the Gun before the Manhandling DR. IOW, you must declare your intention to leave some of your ammo behind, signified by marking the Gun with a Low Ammo counter, before you make the Manhandling DR.

If a Gun is already suffering from Low Ammo, there's obviously no need to place a Low Ammo counter beforehand, and the DRM is therefore automatic.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

As @sdennis and @BattleSchool wrote, the -2 DRM applies only once and applies to all subsequent Manhandling DRs. The table says "before", and placing a Low Ammo counter several Manhandling attempts and a few Game Turns previously is "before".

Now for the kicker: according to the rules as written, if a Low Ammo counter was placed by D3.71 (some Guns have circled B#s, e.g., Chinese ON 7; French ON 6, 18, 20) then the Gun becomes easier to push. I wonder if that was an intended consequence, but it does make sense. Would a SSR saying a Gun was suffering from the effects of Low Ammo also make the DRM apply?

 

[BattleSchool]

Now for the kicker: according to the rules as written, if a Low Ammo counter was placed by D3.71 (some Guns have circled B#s, e.g., Chinese ON 7; French ON 6, 18, 20) then the Gun becomes easier to push. I wonder if that was an intended consequence, but it does make sense.

Pretty sure it was. There's otherwise no difference in the M# of the Mitrailleuse de 13.2 CAJ mle 30 (ON18). It has an M6 whether in French or Free French version despite the fact that only the French-blue counter has a circled B11, while the tan counter is B12. Until either Gun has a Low Ammo counter placed on it, deliberately in the case of the tan counter, neither Gun is easier to push.

Would a SSR saying a Gun was suffering from the effects of Low Ammo also make the DRM apply?

I'd say yes, but only once a Low Ammo counter is placed due to the Gun rolling ≥ to its circled (i.e., SSR) B#.

 

[Larry]

The counter example and D3.71 define the circled B# as signifying low ammo. The relevant text:

A Gun with a B # malfunctions on an Original 12 To-
Hit/IFT DR and suffers Low Ammo on any other Original To-Hit/IFT
DR ≥ the B # .

That implies Low Ammo status does not apply on manhandling at start.

A Low Ammo result includes all ammo types the vehicle
is allowed to use, as per its Vehicle Listing and the scenario date. A vehicle
suffering from Low Ammo is marked with a Low Ammo counter, which
changes the original B # to an X# (as per A.11) and creates a new B # one
less than the Original B # .

Here, the vehicle (gun?) suffers from low ammo and now has a new B# when it gets the counter.

The PS:

A19.131
Recent errata in Journal 5 states ‘A19.131: line 10 replace “all B#” with “all SW Original B#/X# [EXC: DC]” ’. The Index
definition of a SW is any weapon depicted on a half inch counter, so a Gun is not a SW.
With this erratum it seems that when Ammo Shortage (A19.131) is in effect, a Gun’s B# is not lowered or changed to an X# until
an actual Low Ammo counter is placed. Correct?
A. Correct; D3.71.

Example: A Gun has an original B# 11. When Ammo Shortage is in effect, this Gun is considered to have a Low Ammo # (LA#)
of 10. The Gun will malfunction (and can be repaired) on a TH DR of 11 or 12, and have a Low Ammo counter placed on a TH
DR of 10. Correct?
A. Yes.

It would seem that vehicular MGs are not affected by Ammo Shortage unless they are the vehicle’s MA. Is this correct?
A. Yes.

Ammo shortage causes a low ammo # to apply. The relevant part of A19.131:

All vehicles and Guns are considered to have a circled B#
(D3.71) one lower than their inherent B# during an Ammunition Shortage.
Those which already have a circled B# start play with a Low Ammo counter
already in place.

To make matters worse, French Ordnance Note G:

G. “B 11 40” on the counter signifies that this Gun suffers from Low
Ammo (D3.71) in scenarios set in 1940. This status can be negated only
by SSR, an Ammo Vehicle (E10.1) or an Ammo Dump (E10.6). For later
scenarios it is assumed to have normal B12, and a BPV 10% (FRU) > its
printed BPV.

This note implies the presence of a low ammo counter.

See also, Chinese Ordnance note 7 and Chapter K (fewer ammo boxes), The question is whether low ammo status (circled B#) is the equivalent for manhandling purposes. The rules imply that the low ammo status is equivalent and it makes sense. But the chart clearly requires the counter.

 

[BattleSchool]

To make matters worse, French Ordnance Note G:

This note implies the presence of a low ammo counter.

See also, Chinese Ordnance note 7 and Chapter K (fewer ammo boxes), The question is whether low ammo status (circled B#) is the equivalent for manhandling purposes. The rules imply that the low ammo status is equivalent and it makes sense. But the chart clearly requires the counter.

I disagree. I don't think French MAON G and Chinese ON7 (or Chinese MAON D) imply the presence of a Low Ammo counter. The Guns in question do not begin play with a B# and X# lower than that printed on their respective counters.

I think there's some confusion between the increased vulnerability of a Gun to having a Low Ammo counter placed on it, and the actual condition of "Low Ammo."

Keep in mind that all Guns can suffer from the Low Ammo condition. Some, however, are susceptible to having Low Ammo counters placed on them as a result of a TH DR. The majority only acquire Low Ammo counters when they opt to discard ammo in order to increase their mobility.

Therefore a Gun with a circled B#, whether printed on the counter or otherwise assigned, does not begin play with a Low Ammo counter. This is consistent with the rules as spelled out in A19.131: "All... Guns... during an Ammunition Shortage... which already have a circled B# start play with a Low Ammo counter already in place."

Consequently, these Guns are not eligible for the -2 DRM for Manhandling a Gun under a Low Ammo counter until such time as a Low Ammo counter is actually placed, either deliberately or as a result of a sufficiently high TH DR.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I don't think the circled B# implies there is a Low Ammo counter on the Gun for Manhandling purposes. The DRM only applies if there is a Low Ammo counter on the Gun. I just thought it noteable that the Manhandling rules (which were written before the French or Chinese Chapter H sections) were "expanded" by those Chapter H sections. There are two ways of having a Low Ammo counter placed on a Gun to get the Manhandling -2 DRM, either voluntarily before attempting to Manhandle, or involuntarily by firing the Gun and rolling high on the TH DR.

 

[ibncalb]

Where can I find the low ammo counter?

 

[Wayne]

Where can I find the low ammo counter?

Low Ammo appears on the backs of some DM counters.

Per the Armory, there were in BVv3 14x Low Ammo chits on the backsides of DM chits. Only 4x in original BV?

They appear also in VotG and HL and maybe other modules as well.