Possess/Place DC

Tycho

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Hey all,

Might be an easy one, but NRBH...
I have an un-possessed DC and a MMC in the same location. Can the MMC (attempt to) pick up the DC and place or throw it in the same movement phase? The MMC will not be changing location other than the pseudo-move into the target hex. (And yes, Ed, I'm coming for you... :)

Tycho
 

Michael R

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Can a MMC pick up a LMG and fire it in the AFPh? Yes, so I think the answer to your question is also Yes.
 
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jrv

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An item can't be portaged twice during a MPh, so if the unpossessed DC became unpossessed by the death of another unit in that MPh, it can't be picked up again. A DC can't be thrown in the MPh except off a vehicle as BFF. Otherwise I am not aware of anything that would prevent you from recovering and placing a DC (EXC: recovery dr of 6).

JR
 

EagleIV

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An item can't be portaged twice during a MPh, so if the unpossessed DC became unpossessed by the death of another unit in that MPh, it can't be picked up again. A DC can't be thrown in the MPh except off a vehicle as BFF. Otherwise I am not aware of anything that would prevent you from recovering and placing a DC (EXC: recovery dr of 6).

JR
Actually if a DC or other SW becomes unpossessed during the MPh it can be picked up later during that MPh, but it can't then be moved which I would assume includes being placed.
 

von Marwitz

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An item can't be portaged twice during a MPh, so if the unpossessed DC became unpossessed by the death of another unit in that MPh, it can't be picked up again. A DC can't be thrown in the MPh except off a vehicle as BFF. Otherwise I am not aware of anything that would prevent you from recovering and placing a DC (EXC: recovery dr of 6).

JR
Possession and Portage is obviously not identical.

As I understand it, a squad which possesses a LMG for example is not in itself necessarily portaging it. I.e. if you move it, you are portaging it. If you don't move, you merely possess it.

Following this train of thought, unit A could drop that LMG (which does not cost any MF) and unit B could pick it up and move (i.e. portage) it, provided that unit A spent zero MF before dropping it.

Only one unit may portage a SW per MPh but more than one unit may possess it per MPh.

The intention behind the rule is to prevent SW to be carried around in some sort of relay which would allow our LMG to travel way further than any single unit could conceivably carry it.

I am pretty sure that some people think otherwise. If so, on what (part of) rule do you base the assumption that possessing our LMG for zero MF would be portaging it?

von Marwitz
 

jrv

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Possession and Portage is obviously not identical.

As I understand it, a squad which possesses a LMG for example is not in itself necessarily portaging it. I.e. if you move it, you are portaging it. If you don't move, you merely possess it.

Following this train of thought, unit A could drop that LMG (which does not cost any MF) and unit B could pick it up and move (i.e. portage) it, provided that unit A spent zero MF before dropping it.

Only one unit may portage a SW per MPh but more than one unit may possess it per MPh.

The intention behind the rule is to prevent SW to be carried around in some sort of relay which would allow our LMG to travel way further than any single unit could conceivably carry it.

I am pretty sure that some people think otherwise. If so, on what (part of) rule do you base the assumption that possessing our LMG for zero MF would be portaging it?
If the unit dropped the weapon that MPh because it was eliminated, it was fired on by DFF. If it was fired on in that MPh, it spent MF to trigger the DFF. The DC was portaged (MF were spent that MPh) by the now-dead unit, and it can't be portaged (MF spent) again.

edit: I have to correct myself: it is possible that the unit was eliminated in that MPh without spending MF, e.g. it was hit and eliminated by a SAN. But in most cases elimination of the possessing unit would indicate that the DC was portaged.

JR
 
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Rockford

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If the unit dropped the weapon that MPh because it was eliminated, it was fired on by DFF. If it was fired on in that MPh, it spent MF to trigger the DFF. The DC was portaged (MF were spent that MPh) by the now-dead unit, and it can't be portaged (MF spent) again.

edit: I have to correct myself: it is possible that the unit was eliminated in that MPh without spending MF, e.g. it was hit and eliminated by a SAN. But in most cases elimination of the possessing unit would indicate that the DC was portaged.

JR
I don't think that in his hypothetical, VM is saying that anyone was eliminated. Just that a unit dropped the SW. (i.e, voluntarily.)
 

jrv

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Not all DCs lying about in the hex can be recovered and placed, which was the OP's question. Some can, i.e. if they have not been portaged yet. There are many ways that an unportaged DC can end up in a location. Perhaps it has been put there by SSR. Perhaps it was dropped on turn one, and it is now turn nine. The key point is that if the DC has been portaged, it may not be picked up and placed. If it has not been portaged, it may be picked up and placed.

JR
 

clubby

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I don't think that in his hypothetical, VM is saying that anyone was eliminated. Just that a unit dropped the SW. (i.e, voluntarily.)
I'm not sure how you surmised that from his post. He doesn't specifically say how it came to be laying about and he never came back on to clear it up. Seems pretty important that clarification be made for what circumstances you can pick it up.
 

Rockford

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I'm not sure how you surmised that from his post. He doesn't specifically say how it came to be laying about and he never came back on to clear it up. Seems pretty important that clarification be made for what circumstances you can pick it up.
...uh.. because he stated it pretty explicitly? I'm not talking about the OP. I'm talking about von Marwitz's post, which I believe is what JRV was responding to,
 

clubby

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...uh okay. I'm not sure that anything was stated in VM's thread pretty explicitly because that thread reads like a ton of hypotheticals but it's obvious that jrv's reply was not to the OP.
 

von Marwitz

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...uh okay. I'm not sure that anything was stated in VM's thread pretty explicitly because that thread reads like a ton of hypotheticals but it's obvious that jrv's reply was not to the OP.
All right. Normally, I select my words rather carefully. But here they are put more explicitely:

If a SW is possessed by friendly 'unit A' but has not been moved (not moved = not portaged = 0 MF spent), then it can be dropped at 0 MF cost and subsequently picked up by friendly 'unit B' which can then move away with it (= portage it = spend MF while carrying it) as per A4.4 last sentence.

Now have a go at it. ;)

von Marwitz
 

jrv

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Rule A23.6 allows a Halftrack Passenger to throw a DC from a Motion/Non-Stopped vehicle. Rule D6.1 also supports this, as does C13.8.
You are allowed to throw a DC from a vehicle, just not during the friendly MPh. Per A23.6 a DC may be thrown during any friendly fire phase or as DFF (i.e. the enemy MPh). This means throwing a DC during the friendly MPh is not allowed.

JR
 

Aavar

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Rule A23.6 says a dc can be thrown during any friendly Fire phase (or Defensive First Fire). A Fire Phase is Defined as PFPh, DFPh & AFPh.
D6.1 SAYs A passenger can use a DC. And C13.8 DEals with Backblast weapons.
This means a HT Paassenger can throw a DC from a Motion/Non-Stopped vehicle but only during a friendly PFPh, DFPh & AFPh and not during a friendly MPH ergo can not bounding fire with a thrown DC.
(Also applies to sidecar passenger)
 

Ed Caswell

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You are allowed to throw a DC from a vehicle, just not during the friendly MPh. Per A23.6 a DC may be thrown during any friendly fire phase or as DFF (i.e. the enemy MPh). This means throwing a DC during the friendly MPh is not allowed.

JR
Got it. How about other SW such as LATW allowed to fire from a vehicle IAW C13.81 ? I don't see the same restriction for them.

Ed
 

jrv

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Got it. How about other SW such as LATW allowed to fire from a vehicle IAW C13.81 ? I don't see the same restriction for them.
I believe (without looking) that you can use LATW as BFF. Perhaps the most popular is the PIAT that crews occasionally find in the glove compartment when they get a Bren Carrier from the motor pool. Infantry weapons fired from a vehicle as BFF pay +5 case A & B, so you are starting at a disadvantage. But when there are DRM coming back, the Carrier PIAT is an allied "tank terror." As was the case historically, Tiger II battalions have been known to break and run at the sight of a Bren Carrier platoon without waiting to find out if they have PIATs. That's why Monty was given command of the north flank of the Bulge, so he could commit Carriers.

JR
 
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Ed Caswell

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I believe (without looking) that you can use LATW as BFF. Perhaps the most popular is the PIAT that crews occasionally find in the glove compartment when they get a Bren Carrier from the motor pool. Infantry weapons fired from a vehicle as BFF pay +5 case A & B, so you are starting at a disadvantage. But when there are DRM coming back, the Carrier PIAT is an allied "tank terror." As was the case historically, Tiger II battalions have been known to break and run at the sight of a Bren Carrier platoon without waiting to find out if they have PIATs. That's why Monty was given command of the north flank of the Bulge, so he could commit Carriers.

JR
Thanks. I believe there is a Perry Sez to that effect and I reference it in my notes but have been unable to locate it.

Ed
 

Eagle4ty

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I believe (without looking) that you can use LATW as BFF. Perhaps the most popular is the PIAT that crews occasionally find in the glove compartment when they get a Bren Carrier from the motor pool. Infantry weapons fired from a vehicle as BFF pay +5 case A & B, so you are starting at a disadvantage. But when there are DRM coming back, the Carrier PIAT is an allied "tank terror." As was the case historically, Tiger II battalions have been known to break and run at the sight of a Bren Carrier platoon without waiting to find out if they have PIATs. That's why Monty was given command of the north flank of the Bulge, so he could commit Carriers.

JR
Interesting historical note, however I believe you may have misspoken about the Tiger II battalions, as IIRC it was the "Elephant's" that lived in terror of aforementioned little carrier blitz and the unit size was a company/battery. The effect however was quite similar and would have been awe inspiring to witness.
 
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