More DG licensing woes

[jdkbph]

Yes, it's me again... and yes I'm having licensing issues again.

I made sure to send my complaint to the proper email address this time, but I wanted to mention it here as well as we seem to get better responses from the good folks with inside contacts, such as Daedalus and Bullethead, who hang out regularly.

The "no more activations" message popped up AGAIN today. No reason for it that I can see… the only thing I've done to my PC since the last time I played was I upgraded my CPU from an e6600 to an e8400. Just the processor. Not the motherboard, not the drivers, I didn’t do a Windows reinstall, no registry changes to the game, no game uninstall/re-install. No mention that I could find anywhere on the SES web site that this would cause a problem. But apparently it has.

And if this DRM thing that's being used is messing around with WMI calls or somehow punching holes through the HAL to get to the BIOS in order ID my processor... well, that's a bit too intrusive for me. I have to put up with that kind of $h|+ from M$... I'm not going to put up with it from a game maker.

I really do like the game but I've had about enough. So I've requested a refund.

JD

 

[Batou]

It looks like their licensing system is using the processor ID, so a change/replacement of the processor would get flagged as an issue (license no longer matches the original processor ID). Watch out because Microsoft's licensing system does the same thing!

 

[rgreat]

Not only processor ID, it also seems to use windows serial number or something like that.

DG don't run on same machine under different OS.

I wonder why SES does not tried to track user body weight...

 

[Bullethead]

And if this DRM thing that's being used is messing around with WMI calls or somehow punching holes through the HAL to get to the BIOS in order ID my processor... well, that's a bit too intrusive for me. I have to put up with that kind of $h|+ from M$... I'm not going to put up with it from a game maker.

What makes game makers any different from MS or other software producers? We all have exactly the same interest in stopping piracy, and this is naturally going to take us all in the same directions.

The license is for 1 copy on 1 computer at a time. How else can we tell if you've got the software on the same computer as before without checking for different hardware? If the program sees the hardware's changed, then naturally it's going to assume it's on a different machine and stop working.

There's an easy way to avoid this problem, though. Use the license transfer system before you take your box apart. Why didn't you do that? It's in the manual.

 

[rgreat]

What makes game makers any different from MS or other software producers? We all have exactly the same interest in stopping piracy, and this is naturally going to take us all in the same directions.

User does not need to have a game on PC.
But PC cannot work without OS.
That's the main difference between SES and Microsoft.

But after all, no matter how strong your DRM is, it will get cracked/hacked.
More or less, only these who really like the product (and have spare money) will buy it.

And in the end, it's the legal user who suffer the most due to draconian DRM, not a pirate.

There's an easy way to avoid this problem, though. Use the license transfer system before you take your box apart. Why didn't you do that? It's in the manual.

Isn't that too much of a hassle?
Imagine you have like 50 different licensed programs. All have DRM of a SES invented type.
Before and after you do ANYTHING with your machine (be it hardware or OS) you need to manually transfer all of these licenses forward and back?! And not forget anything?
Do you think people have no other things to do?

By the way, it is never mentioned in manual, that you need to transfer license before hardware/software upgrade.

...............

From all software i bought and own Distant Guns have worst DRM possible. And i own quite a lot of software.
It is only because DG is a great game (?thanks to Norm?), i still put up with it.
Guys, friendly advice...improve it.
Allow at least one free automatic activation per month, without user crying/pleading at forums and support mail, while being berated by Lempereur1.

 

[mart]

Bullethead, with all due respect, the guy is not asking for a restatement of policy, but for help, for a genuine problem. To just, in effect, say "tough" to him, is quite unlike you, and I'm surprised to see it.

This is the sort of line people would get before you joined the team and gave it a more reasonable face. How about helping out a genuine customer rather than just telling him it was his own fault?

Sorry, but it's just how it looks to me. I wouldn't even bother to mention it if it weren't so out of line with your normal sensible and balanced approach.

Cheers

Martin

 

[jdkbph]

What makes game makers any different from MS or other software producers? We all have exactly the same interest in stopping piracy, and this is naturally going to take us all in the same directions.

Ummm... no. I'm not going to go there. :crosseye:

The license is for 1 copy on 1 computer at a time. How else can we tell if you've got the software on the same computer as before without checking for different hardware? If the program sees the hardware's changed, then naturally it's going to assume it's on a different machine and stop working.

Naturally. No one has ever heard of an upgrade. It's just not done. Never.

Come on BH. We go back, what?... 15 years? Long enough - even with the gaps - to know where you're coming from with this.

There's an easy way to avoid this problem, though. Use the license transfer system before you take your box apart. Why didn't you do that? It's in the manual.

I don't think it actually mentions this in the License transfer section. It only tells you that you need to do the transfer thing to move the game from one computer to another. Reinstalling Windows? OK I can see that... and a case could be made that one should know enough to figure that out (of course my previous situation was a drive crash, and so not applicable). But it does not say a thing about hardware upgrades to a computer with an existing DG install. And maybe... just maybe... you'll concede that's not so obvious.

But that's OK. I like surprises. What I don't like is he whole concept behind this type of DRM (ie, intrusive and painful to the consumer, while deterring no one who would have bought it anyway)... particularly when I have no intention of stealing anything.

As I said, I have to put up with this crap from MS if I want to play games on my PC (which pretty much rules out Linux and Mac)... there are no viable alternatives. I do not have to put up with it from a game maker... I do have game entertainment type alternatives there.

Sorry but that's how I feel.

JD

 

[Bullethead]

Imagine you have like 50 different licensed programs. All have DRM of a SES invented type.
Before and after you do ANYTHING with your machine (be it hardware or OS) you need to manually transfer all of these licenses forward and back?! And not forget anything?

I actually expect to see that very situation in the not-too-distant future. I'm not looking forward to that any more than you are, because I find the whole DRM thing a pain myself. But the trend is ever-increasingly stringent anti-piracy systems because piracy is ever-increasing both in volume and sophistication. So I've already resigned myself to having a DRM on everything on my computer. And then there'll be a market for "DRM Manager" applications, but I digress....

Piracy is highly organized as a major business in some parts of the world. And while those places might be far away physcially, they're only 1 or 2 clicks from everybody thanks to the internet. There have already been long-established and well-known software and music companies forced into bankruptcy by piracy, so you can't say it's a minor threat. And when other companies see this happen, they naturally reinforce their defenses. So that's how we got to this point.

Like I said, I don't like DRMs any more than you do. But you'll definitely be seeing more of them as time goes on. Might as well get used to them.

I don't think it actually mentions this in the License transfer section. It only tells you that you need to do the transfer thing to move the game from one computer to another. Reinstalling Windows? OK I can see that... and a case could be made that one should know enough to figure that out (of course my previous situation was a drive crash, and so not applicable). But it does not say a thing about hardware upgrades to a computer with an existing DG install. And maybe... just maybe... you'll concede that's not so obvious.

You're right. We'll have to fix that.

 

[rgreat]

I'm not looking forward to that any more than you are, because I find the whole DRM thing a pain myself. But the trend is ever-increasingly stringent anti-piracy systems because piracy is ever-increasing both in volume and sophistication. So I've already resigned myself to having a DRM on everything on my computer.

Well. It is quite pointless, as every interesting DRM protected software is cracked anyway, and will be cracked in future.
Secure DRM protection is a fiction.
Distant Guns is no exception to that rule.

The only ones who bothered by DRM - are legal users.

My point - draconic DRM only help pirates to have it their way.

 

[Bloodstar]

Well. It is quite pointless, as every interesting DRM protected software is cracked anyway, and will be cracked in future.
Secure DRM protection is a fiction.
Distant Guns is no exception to that rule.

The only ones who bothered by DRM - are legal users.

My point - draconic DRM only help pirates to have it their way.

Maybe in Russia but I don't see any pirated copies of DG around...

My take on this - to one extent original poster is right. I too would be bothered if my copy of the game stop working. I am also too lazy to make transfers or have some other things to do. lol

What SES should do is to trust legal customers so if there is a problem with some people - give them another key and make existing defunct that would be less pain in the ass. So if I have paid for some key and for some reason game stop working it is not solely my fault - I want new cd key for example. It would be bad PR for any company to treat customers like criminals.


BUT!

On the other hand customers have BEEN spoiled over time with that crap called customer frendliness, and with that crap called no copy protection. Or with that crap called - companies must have no intruisive copy protection.
The companies can COPY PROTECT their IP in any possible way they want! Customers can moan, *****, cry, curse but generally I don't care about the customers in that way. Because I know one thing - if somebody invested money into some project - then it is not your (customer) business to cry, ***** and curse about that. They invested THEIR money. They didn't take your money and made particular game. Customers forget that in all this spoiled environement. We are not living in a perfect world. But on the other hand I am glad that game companies decided to fight back piracy!
They decided to fight back piracy and many complaints that we here on Internet are in fact cursing and whining of pirates themselves! They will obviously not say that they are pirates they will cry and pretend that they are ligitimate customers.
There is also that idiot Brad Wardell who in fact made excellent marketing ploy and tricked people in believing that his game is so perfectly no copy protected but he cleverly copy protected patches which are not cracked. Volial free PR and sheeps of a public on a one place.

Gamers were spoiled and they were spoiled since beginning. I am playing games from Commodore 64 era. We pirated almost all games on C-64. Yes.

And now when game companies started to play game called Striking Back then customers who have gotten used to this system of a past started to felt threatened. What customers don't realise is what kind of crap game companies must take from pirates and how much they steal from them. Those bastards take pride in doing so. They feel like some socialist poor thing vs. capitalist lol Like we are stealing from those rich guys anyway! lol

This all reminds me on things like bicycle stealing. So in the beginning bicycle didn't have a lock, and thieves stole it 10 times, 20 times... The owner got tired on this and put a good lock on it and thieves were very angy! He have spoiled their habit!!!

Of course I admit that I would be angry myself if I see that some game stop working and I paid for it. Game companies should make the way that legitimiate customers are not treated like criminals. We neglect things like backup, or changing of hardware or damn thunderstom can burn your computer or user is just lazy (like me). In any case game company should try to help legitimate customeres if he proves that he is not pirate and that is not too hard (well sometimes it is but...).


On the other hand CUSTOMER RIGHTS? Forget it, just like I said CUSTOMER RIGHT doesn't exist when I choose to protect my IP. Game companies have all right to protect their property. If you want to let thoeves in your home, go do it if you are crazy. People are hypocrite bastards... I would like to see them invest few million $ and watch all goes down because of pirates... you could also throw money into river. So people are hypocrites. Big hypocrites.

They yell "AAAAAAAAAA! My customer right! My customer right!"

Game companies are nice, I am not, I would say "Bastard, you don't have customer right!" Not in that way that it can allow you that you say how I will PROTECT MY PROPERTY.

The argument that all games are stolen is stupid. Because this is only transitory period and DRM will just improve. Pirates will fight back but game companies HAVE right to fight pirates and they will do that.

Sorry for being too honest but some things has to be said.

 

[Bloodstar]

Just to add one thing...

So that I am not labeled as some sort of defender of SES, I am certanly don't like idea that you cannot sell this game.

In fact I purchased this game because of Norm Koger and TOAW hommage. But this conflict is of not big interest to me. I will certanly not be buying Jutland if I couldn't sell this game. And I mean that.

Jutland is of interest to me but selling of games is customer right that I support. I don't mind DRM so much as I understand the need for it. But if any game company wants to not allow me to sell my game I will boycott it's products.

Anti pirace measure is one thing but if someone wants to sell his game to some other player that is completely another thing.

 

[mart]

I'm sorry but I could have sworn that this thread was about a legitimate customer who bought a product from a retailer, is now having some problems with his legitimately purchased property, over a relatively minor mistake he made, and is being offered no help, but is being given a lecture instead.

Perhaps we could get back to the forgotten subject of the gentleman who simply wants to play the game he legitimately bought. Quoting the "rules" at a legitimate customer is as unhelpful, in this situation, as blaming the SES for selling an unfinished product on the day of its release.

Why not cut the guy some slack, and just help him get his game working, in as friendly a way as possible. This is the whole point of the thread, and if anybody wants to call him a thief then just say it. Otherwise, good customer service would suggest that he be helped as quickly as possible, and everyone should get off his back.

 

[Bullethead]

Why not cut the guy some slack...

JD didn't allow us to cut him any slack. Go back and read the post that started this thread. He said he was requesting a refund. He didn't want his problem fixed, he just wanted out. And he started this thread, on his way out the door, just to announce that fact and to start another argument over what he knows is a dead horse. Oh well.

As JD says, I've known him about 15 years. On the business side, I'm very sad to see him go, because I consider him one of the most knowledgeable naval grogs out there. His input would have been quite valuable, both in this forum and to SES. On the personal side, I'm hurt, for several reasons. But I'm not going to beg him to stay, nor am I going to try to talk him out of a decision he obviously considers as final or he wouldn't have posted it.

Objectively, I admit SES should do a better job warning customers about what can screw up their license situation. We've left some traps for the unwary, such as what apparently happened to JD. I've made recommendations about that. But at the same time, if a self-proclaimed ex-customer doesn't want any help, but is just out to stir the pot, it's pretty hard to feel very sympathetic.

The existence of SES's license system is Eohippus, the deadest of all possible horses. It's not going away. Ever. Period. End of story. So there's no sense in complaining about that particular aspect of the issue, and those who do in the future should not be surprised if they are regarded as trolls at best, whining pirates at worst.

That said, like everything else, our DRM CAN be improved. That will happen over time, especially with some non-hateful constructive feedback. It's in everybody's interest to make it as painless for customers as possible. In the meantime, however, I ask you all to bear with it until whatever improvements are necessary happen.

 

[jdkbph]

JD didn't allow us to cut him any slack. Go back and read the post that started this thread. He said he was requesting a refund. He didn't want his problem fixed, he just wanted out.

Actually, I'm still here waiting on some sort of response. At this point I'd like a refund yes. But of course, if that request is refused, then I do expect a fix.

And he started this thread, on his way out the door, just to announce that fact and to start another argument over what he knows is a dead horse. Oh well.

Did I not explain why I posted?

I emailed SES the first time this happened but received no response until Daedalus stepped in to help. So when it happened a second time I thought I'd cover my bases by posting here again, where I know SES reps are active and generally responsive... you know, just in case my latest email fell into that black hole again.

In case you're wondering... as of Monday night I've received no response from SES tech support - not even an acknowledgment that the issue/request has been received.

Which is really at the root of my frustration. In case you missed it, I'll try to summarize.

You're telling us your DRM isn't going away and we (your customers) just need to shut up and suck it up? Fine. But this is a two way street. Consider...

Your DRM, without question, goes far beyond what any other game maker is doing.

You're well aware that your customers are experiencing show stopping issues because of it.

Shouldn't it follow that you need to go far beyond what other game makers are doing in order to provide timely and effective support when this happens?

Instead you seem to be perfectly content putting all the pain associated with this thing on your customers.

OK... dead horse? I get it. But dead horses are pretty hard to ignore after a while. You leave them lying around too long without doing anything about them and they start to smell.

JD

 

[jdkbph]

Anti pirace measure is one thing but if someone wants to sell his game to some other player that is completely another thing.

You do realize we're both yelling "AAAAAAAAAA!" about the same thing, don't you?



JD

 

[Bloodstar]

You do realize we're both yelling "AAAAAAAAAA!" about the same thing, don't you?



JD

Maybe. But I have defended on Usenet and God knows what other places RIGHT of publishers to protect their property. On this place numerous times. Maybe a little bit rude but I don't let any prisoner escape.

I printed manual of this game (many pages!), played this game for some time, OK got a book on Russo-Japanese war and then got back into playing TOAW. My playing time is limited and when you playing scenario that involves 1800 units in TOAW there is not many hours left for some other games :yummy:.
Simply I don't find this period of history so intersting.
SES should consider that some customer wants to sell their games. Consider very seriously.

I don't mind so much this DRM. What I think that wargame market is not so big that it needs so much DRM - it is better suited for massmarket games.
But we see that GTA IV is flying off the shells even without DRM.
Wargames could have been protected like Shrapnel Games or Matrix Games is doing - CD KEYS that goes on black list if cracked. You just monitor astalavista or such places and put cd keys on black list in patches, as wargames are not very interesting to pirates they seldom crack patches.
OK, SES have gotten at least satisfaction that this game is not widely pirated - at least I am not aware of that.

But I am not complaining about DRM per se - because then everybody could complain why people lock the cars or houses or bicycles. They have every right to protect their game no matter how some customers find that annoying.
But if customers want to sell their games - let them do it. I didn't stolen this game, I have paid it, and want to sell it for half price or whatever.
So maybe it may sound that we are yelling same AAAAAAAAAA! but I've got inner satisfaction in seeing that this game cannot be just so easily cracked, copies and put on torrent and feed poor, socialist lazy bastards . In that vein I am acting like capitalist with no big feelings for them lol.


Mario

 

[rgreat]

Maybe in Russia but I don't see any pirated copies of DG around...

Try google.

My take on this - to one extent original poster is right. I too would be bothered if my copy of the game stop working. I am also too lazy to make transfers or have some other things to do. lol

What SES should do is to trust legal customers so if there is a problem with some people - give them another key and make existing defunct that would be less pain in the ass.

Thats, where problem lies.

DRM is not really a big problem IF you can manage it fast and painless.
But that not the case for SES and DG.
Even if you a legal customer - you still have a problem.

 

[sonarman]

Yes, I think people should be able to sell their license too, I can do it with my Adobe DRM protected software. Its just a matter of deactivating the software on my system downloading a transfer of licence document which I sign & pass on to the next guy who also signs it & returns it to Adobe.

 

[Bloodstar]

Try google.

Hmmm, don't want to download pirated copies :devious:
I buy few games here and there every few month. But, in high school kids are broke hehe.

Thats, where problem lies.

DRM is not really a big problem IF you can manage it fast and painless.
But that not the case for SES and DG.
Even if you a legal customer - you still have a problem.

LOL Maybe you are right but this game never captured me enough to really sink into it. Maybe I will buy Jutland as that period interest me much more.


Mario

 

[mart]

DRM is not really a big problem IF you can manage it fast and painless.
But that not the case for SES and DG.
Even if you a legal customer - you still have a problem.

I agree. SES may talk much of being a developer, but they are also a retailer, and should provide the customer service and respect that any good retailer shows to it's customers if it wishes to keep their loyalty.

I have been reading this forum for some time. I did not give the trial version of Distant Guns a go until recently, for reasons of quite a personal nature, but people were very encouraging and I have indeed tried it, and got the game to run in a stable configuration.

However, having watched this forum for some time and observed the discussions and the input of SES, I have decided not to continue. Firstly, in an environment where support often means friction, and because I like to feel that my aims and those of the company and the community are all the same, and because I like to enjoy games in a friction-free setting, I have decided that I don't wish to part with $65 to effectively rent a game when I know that at some point in the future I may have the problems that others have had, and be at the receiving end of the company's sometimes rude response to any form of criticism.

Before SES even released the game (which I would remind people was released unfinished but at full price) they stated on their site that they "intended to have their cake and eat it". They have attempted to do this, and it has not always led to helpful outcomes.

I simply cannot be doing with the hassle.

I have, incidentally, had private correspondence of a very friendly and helpful nature with both Bullethead and Daedalus which I greatly appreciated. If either of you would like to keep in touch you will always be really welcome, and i will always try to be as positive and friendly as I can

Thanks and good luck to everyone. I know many of you enjoy the game and I hope you continue to have many more hours of enjoyment with both DG and Jutland. To SES, I would simply suggest that a period of humble reflection could be beneficial to customer relations and to your business.

Martin