Moon Says that CM x 2 Normandy Coming in 2009

wengart

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The biggest single problem was that CMSF was a piece of crap when it was released--and for a very long time thereafter.
This is the reason I think it is so difficult to judge how well CM:SF has done. If you look only at MP stats (clubs/ladders, even the BFC forums) its clear that CM:SF relative to CMx1 does not have a strong community based around it. However, not only does asymmetrical warfare present a subpar basis for competitive play, but the 2? year period of relative unplayability (especially PBEMs) sucked out any inertia CM:SF had of forming a large online community. Furthermore, its not like CM games are the pinnacle of online access and ease of use. PBEM is a relatively rare style of play outside of dedicated wargaming communities, and direct connect RT play creates a barrier to any type of quick and easy online play.

Its frankly impossible to judge how well CM:SF is doing outside of online wargame players. I would imagine, those players are mostly made up of those who went online with CMx1 and how many CMx1 players went online relative to total sales. Only Steve has access to those numbers and we will probably never know.

Also I dislike bringing it up in this way, but how many sales did BFC make on CM:SF's initial sales. It is quite possible that CM:SF outsold CM:BO drawing in the CMx1 crowd and new players. These people would have all bought it at full price, and even if only 30%(or less!) of them stayed with the game its quite possible that BFC made a killing on initial sales.
 

Redwolf

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Field of Glory - 2009

War in the Pacific AE - 2009

Crown of Glory EE - 2009

Forge of Freedom - 2006

CMSF: British Module - 2009

AGEOD AACW - 2007

Kharkov: DotD - 2008

HPS Pick your flavour - 2009

GG WbtS - 2008

Guns of August - 2007

Conquest of the Aegean - 2006


I take it you don't consider any of these good wargames then?
Care to say a word more about each/most of these?
 

dalem

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Also I dislike bringing it up in this way, but how many sales did BFC make on CM:SF's initial sales. It is quite possible that CM:SF outsold CM:BO drawing in the CMx1 crowd and new players. These people would have all bought it at full price, and even if only 30%(or less!) of them stayed with the game its quite possible that BFC made a killing on initial sales.
I think this is an excellent point.

-dale
 

Redwolf

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While we only have sucky evidence, all the sucky evidence points to CM:SF selling badly. Online talk about it is one, and don't forget the Amazon.com sales, which always were lower than the CMx1, and that means several CMx1 packages sold better, each, than CM:SF. That has been going on since CM:SF release.

I know that the proponents of CMSF will say that the main sales were on BFC's website, but somebody will have to explain to me why the demographics of CM:SF should be more likely and the ones of CMx1 less likely to buy on Amazon.
 

NUTTERNAME

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As far as Amazon Sales, it appears that CMSF is in a better sales position than CMAK?

CMAK
#26,628 in Video Games

CMSF
#15,107 in Video Games

I take it the lower the number, the closer to a Top Seller? So CMSF must have sold marginally well and also appealed to a wider market given the other games people bought. I su[pose its also a time function where afrter awhile the games level out. The CMx1 series having more time being my point. But a general claim that it did not outsell the CMx1 'type' game is probably about right. I would bet that a WWII version of the CMx2 series will have better sales than modern.
 

Zonso

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Zonso--I'm not taking the bait. The main part of my post was about BF, CM x 1 and CM x 2. Your post in response was an evasive maneuver away the core of my post and the points made therein.

That said--answer my question about which year from 1996 through 2005 was worse and why. Your thin list makes my point.
What are you on about? What bait, what evasive manuever? You said and I quote:

Zonso--you're way off the mark with regard to wargames and the computer war gaming market. Virtually every very successful war game since at least the late DOS era had great depth and usually included an excellent editor, if not a construction kit. Panzer General, the Campaign Series, Steel Panthers, Close Combat, TOAW, CM x 1... While wargamers are hungry for the next great wargame, that is largely because we have been in wargame winter for about 3 years. The road flairs, as Dale describes them, may sell in other genres, but not as a wargame.
And I responded with a collection of wargames released in the last 3-4 years putting lie to your 'wargame winter' statement. Whatever. <shrugs>
 

Redwolf

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You gotta drag in more editions, but alas it is the first time I see CMSF being ahead of even the base CMAK. Gotta dig out some historical numbers from previous threads.
 

Zonso

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Redwolf:

Field of Glory by Slitherine is an Ancients grand tactical game based on the tabletop miniature ruleset. It is definitely 'lite' and has a slick MP feature built into the game to find opponents and play.

War in the Pacific AE by Gary Grisby is a monster strategic game covering the entire WWII Pacific campaign, very detailed and for the most micromanagement tolerant.

Crown of Glory EE and Forge of Freedom, by Western Civilization Software, are strategic level games with an grand tactical component (optional) covering the Napoleonic era and the US Civil War respectively. They are both very detailed though I think FoF is a tighter focus and better game overall. The tactical battles break down to brigade level and are very well done, almost a game within a game; can be played SP or MP.

CMSF: British Module equals :)

Amercian Civil War by AGEOD is a very detailed strategic/operational type game with a very boardgame like map and unique rules/design - very well done. They are WEGO and have demos for all their games I believe.

Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets by SSG is an operational game covering the 1942 battle for Kharkov. It has definite boardgame roots and feel and play. The AI is surprisingly good.

War between the States by Gary Grisby is a strategic level game covering the US Civil War using areas instead of hexes. It is WEGO.

Guns of August by Frank Hunter is a WWI strategic level game, WEGO as well. It's UI is obtuse but the game is very well done and really captures the feel of WWI.

Conquest of the Aegean by Panther Games is a operational level game covering the battles in Greece, Crete and Africa. It uses a unique continuous time engine (pausible), modelled down to company/battalion level, with a very powerful AI. One of the only games requiring the player to think realistically like a commander.
 

Redwolf

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Field of Glory by Slitherine is an Ancients grand tactical game based on the tabletop miniature ruleset. It is definitely 'lite' and has a slick MP feature built into the game to find opponents and play.
Lite minature tabletop doesn't really prevent me from thinking I'm in a winter of tactical computer wargaming.

War in the Pacific AE by Gary Grisby is a monster strategic game covering the entire WWII Pacific campaign, very detailed and for the most micromanagement tolerant.
Not exactly tactical ;)

Crown of Glory EE and Forge of Freedom, by Western Civilization Software, are strategic level games with an grand tactical component (optional) covering the Napoleonic era and the US Civil War respectively. They are both very detailed though I think FoF is a tighter focus and better game overall. The tactical battles break down to brigade level and are very well done, almost a game within a game; can be played SP or MP.
FoF?

Sounds interesting, but not tactical.

Amercian Civil War by AGEOD is a very detailed strategic/operational type game with a very boardgame like map and unique rules/design - very well done. They are WEGO and have demos for all their games I believe.
Strategic boardgame.

Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets by SSG is an operational game covering the 1942 battle for Kharkov. It has definite boardgame roots and feel and play. The AI is surprisingly good.
But how is it different from the other Decisive Battles titles?

And it's operational.

War between the States by Gary Grisby is a strategic level game covering the US Civil War using areas instead of hexes. It is WEGO.

Guns of August by Frank Hunter is a WWI strategic level game, WEGO as well. It's UI is obtuse but the game is very well done and really captures the feel of WWI.
Strategic.

Conquest of the Aegean by Panther Games is a operational level game covering the battles in Greece, Crete and Africa. It uses a unique continuous time engine (pausible), modelled down to company/battalion level, with a very powerful AI. One of the only games requiring the player to think realistically like a commander.
This is a kick-ass series, but didn't it come out long enough ago to label the current situation a winter?
 

Zonso

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Why are you comparing now to a tactical criteria? I know very well that most of those were not strictly tactical in nature. Reread the above passages I quoted, what's your point?
 

dalem

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Why are you comparing now to a tactical criteria? I know very well that most of those were not strictly tactical in nature. Reread the above passages I quoted, what's your point?
I believe his point is that he feels we're in a "winter" for tactical level wargames, and you've "responded" by posting a list of non-tactical games. Kinda like wishing for pie and someone points out that there's cake.

-dale
 

Zonso

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I believe his point is that he feels we're in a "winter" for tactical level wargames, and you've "responded" by posting a list of non-tactical games. Kinda like wishing for pie and someone points out that there's cake.

-dale
No I never responded to a 'winter of tactical level wargames' by posting a list of non-tactical games. I responded to KGJag saying we have been in a wargame winter for the past 3 years by listing a handful of games off the top of my head that have been released in the last 3-4 years. Wow.
 

Redwolf

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Yeah. If I liked operational IGOYGO games I wouldn't feel being in a winter.

But both WEGO and tactical games are in a dumpster.
 

dalem

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No I never responded to a 'winter of tactical level wargames' by posting a list of non-tactical games. I responded to KGJag saying we have been in a wargame winter for the past 3 years by listing a handful of games off the top of my head that have been released in the last 3-4 years. Wow.
Ahh, okay. That's why I put "responded" in quotes - I wasn't 100% sure which folks were replying to which other folks. Sorry for the misread.

-dale
 

Zonso

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Yeah. If I liked operational IGOYGO games I wouldn't feel being in a winter.

But both WEGO and tactical games are in a dumpster.
Riiiight. I'm getting the impression....


Crown of Glory EE - WeGo

Forge of Freedom - WeGo

CMSF: British Module - WeGo/Continuous Time

AGEOD AACW - WeGo

GG WbtS - WeGo

Guns of August - WeGo

Conquest of the Aegean - Continuous Time


Anyways, there are a lot of good wargames out there, if you care to see. As for tactical, yep the choices are somewhat limited :)
 

Elvis

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Riiiight. I'm getting the impression....


Crown of Glory EE - WeGo

Forge of Freedom - WeGo

CMSF: British Module - WeGo/Continuous Time

AGEOD AACW - WeGo

GG WbtS - WeGo

Guns of August - WeGo

Conquest of the Aegean - Continuous Time


Anyways, there are a lot of good wargames out there, if you care to see. As for tactical, yep the choices are somewhat limited :)
From the profiles on the site it looks like Redwolf is from Massachusetts and it looks like KG is from Texas and/or Reno.You can not expect them to be experiencing the same winter. As for me? It's always sunny in Philadelphia. (TV show reference for those outside the US)
 

KG_Jag

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From the profiles on the site it looks like Redwolf is from Massachusetts and it looks like KG is from Texas and/or Reno.You can not expect them to be experiencing the same winter. As for me? It's always sunny in Philadelphia. (TV show reference for those outside the US)
I grew up in Wisconsin and know winter when I see it. 1996 through 2005 was summer, fall and spring for wargames overall--regardless of sub-type. That is also the time frame when the engines of many, if not most, were first released that drive the Zonso touted wargames of the last several years.

P.S.--check the Reno forecast and pack you skis.
 
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Elvis

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P.S.--check the Reno forecast and pack you skis.
(I hear ya. My wife brother is an instructor at Mammoth Mt a bit south of you and on Saturday he said he expected 8-12 FEET of snow this week. I could use it because I felt like I was skiing on ice Saturday night.)
 
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