LOS Question

[wurst nightmare]

Please correct me if I am wrong. The LOS tool shows clear to S7, but I as I recall, the lower elevation on any edges of hexes are only artwork and whatever the elevation at the center dot is what the elevation of the whole hex is, so the shot should be blocked?

Thank you.

 

[clubby]

I might be misunderstanding the situation but that hex is brush not a lower elevation.

 

[wurst nightmare]

Shooting from V3 over the lower elevation to S7. As it goes through T6, which is a woods hex, the artwork where the LOS passes is visibly at a lower elevation. I want to confirm that even though that is the way it appears, rules-wise it would be blocked because the elevation of the whole hex is whatever the center hex is. Since the LOS checker is showing it as clear, I want to confirm that in reality it is blocked.

 

[Paul John]

This is a wonky thing as the newer rulebook has given room to treat the level as one chooses.
B10.1 line 9
Other terrain (e.g., grain, brush, woods, building) is at the higher level
throughout the entire depiction of the terrain in question for LOS purposes
(but the actual Crest Line is always used for movement purposes), even if it
appears to be rising from the lower level portion of the hill hex [EXC: Newer
boards may depict visible Crest Lines beneath this other terrain (EX: 61F8),
in which case the actual Crest Line is used to determine LOS as is the case
with Inherent Terrain] ^3A.
3A says
3A. 10.1 HILLS: In addition to having visible Crest Lines beneath some terrain, newer
boards are much better at depicting where Crest Lines actually are by using gaps in the
terrain. In many areas of these boards, most players will be able to agree on where the
Crest Lines actually are underneath the other terrain of grain, brush, woods, or buildings
even without visible Crest Lines. When players can so agree, we encourage them
to use the actual Crest Lines to determine LOS.

The LOS you depict is clearly using this 'rule'. The woods in T6 are rising from the lower level
and not blocking LOS according to this interpretation. Formerly, the rule was clear that
your LOS would be blocked, but basically MMP is saying to treat these other terrain types
much like inherent terrain has always been treated.

 

[DougRim]

What board is that? Are you sure that the VASL LOS Engine is active? Check for a message in the chat window when you loaded the map. That looks like the VASSAL LOS String to me; which means no los checking is being done. It is just showing you the literal line of sight and giving you the range.

 

[wurst nightmare]

91.

 

[clubby]

Shooting from V3 over the lower elevation to S7. As it goes through T6, which is a woods hex, the artwork where the LOS passes is visibly at a lower elevation. I want to confirm that even though that is the way it appears, rules-wise it would be blocked because the elevation of the whole hex is whatever the center hex is. Since the LOS checker is showing it as clear, I want to confirm that in reality it is blocked.

Oh I see what you're saying. Honestly didn't even notice the woods at the same level.

 

[clubby]

I don't understand that explanation. I would have played that as blocked all day long.

 

[clubby]

This is a wonky thing as the newer rulebook has given room to treat the level as one chooses.
B10.1 line 9
Other terrain (e.g., grain, brush, woods, building) is at the higher level
throughout the entire depiction of the terrain in question for LOS purposes
(but the actual Crest Line is always used for movement purposes), even if it
appears to be rising from the lower level portion of the hill hex [EXC: Newer
boards may depict visible Crest Lines beneath this other terrain (EX: 61F8),
in which case the actual Crest Line is used to determine LOS as is the case
with Inherent Terrain] ^3A.
3A says
3A. 10.1 HILLS: In addition to having visible Crest Lines beneath some terrain, newer
boards are much better at depicting where Crest Lines actually are by using gaps in the
terrain. In many areas of these boards, most players will be able to agree on where the
Crest Lines actually are underneath the other terrain of grain, brush, woods, or buildings
even without visible Crest Lines. When players can so agree, we encourage them
to use the actual Crest Lines to determine LOS.

The LOS you depict is clearly using this 'rule'. The woods in T6 are rising from the lower level
and not blocking LOS according to this interpretation. Formerly, the rule was clear that
your LOS would be blocked, but basically MMP is saying to treat these other terrain types
much like inherent terrain has always been treated.

Are you saying that by the rules the woods don't actually go over the crest despite the art work showing they do?

 

[DougRim]

Another example from the same board that is a bit easier to determine.

In this case it is clear to see that the LOS crosses woods in AA4 that are at Level -1. It does not cross any woods terrain at the higher Level 0. And so the los is clear as VASL indicates (red is clear on my machine).

Personally, I believe that this is exactly the same case as in the OP. But that's just MHO, I can't see that the LOS crosses any Level 0 terrain in T6. But it's pretty darn close and I wouldn't bet the farm on my eyesight.

The rule as described in B10.1 is clear, I think: if you can determine the base level of any point in a hex (due to the presence of crest lines) then you use that base level for los purposes at that particular point.

I was wrong in my previous post when I suggested that what was showing in the OP was the VASSAL los string. I believe it is indeed the VASL string but with verbose mode turned off.

 

[clubby]

Another example from the same board that is a bit easier to determine.

In this case it is clear to see that the LOS crosses woods in AA4 that are at Level -1. It does not cross any woods terrain at the higher Level 0. And so the los is clear as VASL indicates (red is clear on my machine).

Personally, I believe that this is exactly the same case as in the OP. But that's just MHO, I can't see that the LOS crosses any Level 0 terrain in T6. But it's pretty darn close and I wouldn't bet the farm on my eyesight.

The rule as described in B10.1 is clear, I think: if you can determine the base level of any point in a hex (due to the presence of crest lines) then you use that base level for los purposes at that particular point.

I was wrong in my previous post when I suggested that what was showing in the OP was the VASSAL los string. I believe it is indeed the VASL string but with verbose mode turned off.
View attachment 28572

Ok I get it now. The woods not on the ground level terrain are actually at -1 not a contiguous group of woods hanging over the edge. 2D is hard to see sometimes.

 

[jyoung]

I like what the LFT guys do and explicitly mark the crest line, takes the guess work out:

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I like what the LFT guys do and explicitly mark the crest line, takes the guess work out:

Which is what is done on official boards nowadays as well - granted the Crest Line when drawn above woods in a valley hex can be hard to see....

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Since this is board 91, the Crest Line is visible above the woods - so the EXC in B10.1 applies. It is not "using" the footnote, that's for older boards without a visible Crest Line (if both players agree, of course).

 

[Paul John]

Are you saying that by the rules the woods don't actually go over the crest despite the art work showing they do?

Yes, but in the original post it is pretty close and rather unclear. I based that on the LOS thread showing it as not blocked.
Doug's example makes the point much better.