Jutland Gunnery model must be finetuned.

[Taki1980]

I think the overall Hitrate is not right. Exspecially on Short Ranges.

In Demo Settings i tryed the Scenario with DD, CL,BB,BB vs Similar Forces. Never met the BBs and hook the CL and DD to my FOrces. I formed a Line of all of my Ships and they score Hits making the Enemy Sink in about 10 Minutes. That was right.

What wasnt right is the fact that after they Hit and the Enemy got slower and SLower and DIstance was about 2,5km they constantly missing 4 out of 5 Salvos.

Missing on Moving Ships with changing Values of Speed, Bearing, Smoke etc. okay. 2 or more Ships shooting same target get worse oookay. But missing 4 out of 5 Salvos on Point blanc? Definatly not!

 

[stachel]

Yes I've been having a go at this one - a bit annoyed that Konig was able to score a hit virtually as soon as the battle started, but once I turned to bring all 5 turrets to bear I started to get my own back A nice feeling watching the shellcam and seeing 10 13.5" shells slam directly into the side of Konig which was eating sea bed not long after

Hi there, my first post here ,but i have owned a copy of DG (don't know for how long now)and just purchased the jutland pro edition (BTW 1st class work again SES!).

I have been playing a couple of the battles as germans now ,and i noticed the computer opponent seems to be very accurate with the 1st or 2nd salvo .

I lost my DD in the red dawn scenario as soon as the BB's opened up on them,Cl didn't last longer ,i took my BB's N to get better position with the lighting and after a long gunnery duel at roughly 5000 yards sank one of the RN BB's (thunderer i believe) and the other ran with its frontal turrets knocked out,i got the DD and Cl for desert

During the "duel" battle the RN BB empress of india also got a couple of hits in with the first few salvo's (i started doing slight course changes as soon as i got hit a few times),later on i closed to roughly 3500 yards and empress took a real beating from konig from then on.

Though at those closer ranges with the flat trajectories ,i would expect the salvoes to stay on target more once they have a good solution on the target,watching them shoot all around a target for a longtime after some real good hits is pretty frustrating )

So ,superb game there SES,

 

[HMSWarspite]

What everyone is missing (I think) is the difference between reality (for example the ships are steaming parallel, and same speed) and what the firing ship thinks is happening. When a salvo hits, the firing ship will assume that the solution is a valid one and try to repeat. If they have the correct range and range rate (change of range) and target speed (bearing rate), all will be good until one of two things happens. The target changes course or speed, or the firer thinks that they have. This could happen because the spotter thinks the fall of shot is over instead of short, or misses it completely (or sees someone elses in multiship battles). This can produce positive feed back (or at best no feedback) and the firer will start making corrections based on duff data.

The other possibilty is that the salvo straddles, but with two errors cancelling eachother out, say an incorrect range and range rate. In other words the hit is a fluke and not based on a valid firing solution in modern speak. To exaggerate, say range rate is assumed opening 1000yds/min, and the latest salvo is assessed as 400yds short. they will correct up 400yds. However assume the salvo was really 800yds short and further the range rate is really 400yds/min closing. The 400 short correction might put a salvo on target (since whilst it is too small, the target has in the mean time closed the range without the range rate picking up on it). The next salvo will be way off. Why? Because the director thinks the next range (say a minute later for ease of maths) is 1000yds longer, but in fact it should be 400yds shorter. Result a hit followed by 1400 yds over...
even though the fall of shot on the hit was correctly spotted.

A bit simplified, but I hope you see how effects can appear quite random
Now this is at long range of course but similar things can happen at shorter ranges, and bearing becomes inportant - flight times are down but bearing rates are far higher. Now I don't suppose for a minute that the game models the processes I have just outlined, but I think that is what the aiming/missing modelling simulates by some simplified process. As I have said before it is really common for ships to have a good spell then lose the range (or plot if you like ) completely...

 

[Bullethead]

As I have said before it is really common for ships to have a good spell then lose the range (or plot if you like ) completely...

Well said in all respects.

And in fact in the game, you'll often see that hits come in bunches. A ship will have it down for several consecutive salvos, either hitting, straddling, or being very close short or over, and then lose it.

 

[vertical]

Has the Germans often connecting with the first couple salvos been noted as an issue? Things seem normal after that. It can't be right, and several users have reported it.

vertical

 

[Bullethead]

Has the Germans often connecting with the first couple salvos been noted as an issue? Things seem normal after that. It can't be right, and several users have reported it.

It happens. Luck of the draw. In good conditions, the Germans usually found the range faster than the Brits did. At Jutland, several German BCs hit within the first several salvos. But they don't always.

 

[HMSWarspite]

Germans have better rangefinders (RL). Also they use the ladder system which can help find the range quickly. It was remarked upon in RL, although there is a debate as to whether the effects wear off with crew fatigue and general snafu effects as battles wear on. The full RN system was slower to find the range (allegedly) but held up better. Beattys BCs cant shoot for toffee (in RL and the game). The ladder system is probably correct because the GF started usung it after Jutland

Crossed with BH

 

[vertical]

It happens. Luck of the draw. In good conditions, the Germans usually found the range faster than the Brits did. At Jutland, several German BCs hit within the first several salvos. But they don't always.

Fair enough, I will defer to the experts.

vertical

 

[Johnnie]

Didn't these ships basically fire with all their broadside guns once they had the range ?? It seems to me that when they fire in the game I see exactly half the shells I thought there should be in flight. Is this an abstraction ??

 

[Heinz Fischer]

Didn't these ships basically fire with all their broadside guns once they had the range ?? It seems to me that when they fire in the game I see exactly half the shells I thought there should be in flight. Is this an abstraction ??

As already noted by Bullethead, this is historical - ships fire in half-salvos rather than salvos for more efficient spotting and fire adjustment. When you get to shorter ranges (and shorter shell flight times), the ships fire full salvos.

 

[Lempereur1]

Another thing to keep in mind is visibility.

While it may seem like 21 KM visability is alot, in actuallity, 40KM is perfect visability.

Some have looked at the Duel scenario and think that there is perfect visability. Its not. Ints 21km.

That means that if the target is 16km away, you are already 3/4 fo the way to maximum visability. That also has an impact on accuracy and salvo correction.

We are looking at the 0 to 6000m shelling to make sure the master algorithm is working correctly.

 

[TBR]

Now having some night battles with the BCF's screen units under my belt I noticed something peculiar. I had several AC's nd LC's under fire by my battleships at 3600m and less. The targets quickly gained a depth marker, that is a line on middle of the waterline on their near side, about 1/4 ships length long, lots of secondary and tertiary hits merging into a black line. Rarely any hits outside of this line, and comparatively rare main gun hits. There is something a little bit fishy with main gun accuracy at low ranges especially in comparison to the secondaries, perhaps a look into the secondary guns algorithm might help. I've got to go on duty tomorrow so I absolutely HAVE to go to sleep now, Jutland kept me awake far to long.

 

[philbill]

I am not sure what is happening, however I have played the duel as the Brits 5 times and lost 5 times. The German ship rushed at me with his ship only firing the forward guns and repeatedly hitting me. I was crossing his T with full broadsides and only managed to land one shell. Some of the salvos were so far off its not even funny. I know I reperesent a bigger target and his is a thin profile but I saw salvo after salvo go in the same place with little or no correction for where the shells land. Then when they did move to another place they were way off target. Is there a problem with the Brit gunnery algorithm?
Phil

 

[Starlight]

I have played as the Germans in the Duel a few times now and I find the Brits far more accurate than the Germans, including never suffering a turret loss, even after puting some nice holes in their turrets!

I will post a nice picture when I get home tonight of Konig with an 11 degree list (I think) with main batteries at high elevation in a broadside trying to hit India, and the sea awash on the lower decking.

Looks very impressive

 

[Enforcer]

I'm still running the demo (but have done one update, don't know whether this was meant to resolve the aim problem or not, but apparently not)

I have just played the scenario with König Albert and Emperor Of India as the Germans. Both ships closed in to a distance below 2000 meters and even then hits were extremely rare on both sides :bite: in Distant Guns ... shooting at this distance would mean a lot of hits and in Jutland it is... devestating. Seems is if accuracy worsened rather than improved

And to what extent the balls miss is also flagrant.

Third point: In a preview I had read that German gunnery optics are superior to British in the game. I haven't noticed this yet.

 

[PepsiCan]

Has anyone observed the "stradling of ships" by gunfire? When I played the Death Match, I found my salvos either fell short or went over, never straddled the targets though.

Is that correct? Or should we a straddle every now and again?

 

[Derfflinger]

In my battle against the "Emperor of India", i have sunk her at 8400 meters.

 

[Zakalwe]

@ PepsiCan

With the very narrow grouping of salvos like currently in the game, I doubt it is possible. The flat trajectories would only allow it from the ends of the ships read while crossing the T. Broadside, it should be only short or wide over.

I`ve seen one BB running into splashes of a salvo, a very pic.

Z.

 

[Hillslam]

Sorry to throw a devils advocate post in here, but regarding the low hit ratios for short range gunnery; its not ALL bad.

Last night I played a computer generated battle and ended up in the interesting situation where a 4 ship division of German BCs split the middle up two divisions of British 4-ship BBs. So we had one line of Brits, the Germans in the middle, and the other line of Brits, all in parallel but on 180 degree diff bearing. Oh... and the ranges were 600 to 2000m. lol.

Let me just say that was spectacular, and had gunner model been even close to "right" the ensuing knife fight would have been over in minutes. As it was, after much noise and light, 3 of the BCs drove out the other side, leaving 5 british BBs surviving on the other end.

Totally unrealistic - but immensely fun!

BTW - am I the only one setting battles to British Player = "Computer" and German Player = "Computer" and just watching? I love that. The above came from that.

 

[PepsiCan]

Any friendly fire incidents with all these near misses?