Is the US Strategy misfired?

Cheetah772

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Hello,

Although my support for the war is still strong, the criticism of how the war is being conducted by both politicians and military commanders remains very strong.

First of all, I am saddened by several mistakes on part of the US military commanders, especially Gen. Franks.

I believe that Franks is mishandling the war right now. For example, I am disgusted at the handling of I MED, it is not designed for land warfare, it is primarily used as a rapid deployment force meant to establish a foothold temporarily, and allow the heavier divisions to make a speedy entry. Now, the MEDs are being used to fight the Republican Guard units around Al Kut 100 miles east of Baghdad on the Tirgis River.

Second example would be assigning 101st Airborne Division to guarding the supply lines and reinforcing the 3rd ID, IMO, this is a waste of a division. 101st Airborne Division is again designed for paradrops and rapid deployment, not for long and intensive combat.

The way I see it, Bush deserves sharp criticism even at this early stage in the war. I expected Bush and Franks to iron out the flaws and use common sense in war-gaming any scenario in Iraq.

I am furious with Bush, Blair, and Franks. Way I see it, it's such a political mess, everybody is scared of everything. Now, that Bush and Blair got what they wanted: a war with Iraq, and I do support it, but I believe that we has to go ALL WAY with NO LIMITATIONS OR RESTRICTIONS on the military, period.

If I had my way, I would rather wait for 4th ID, even if it means delaying the war for a few weeks, and assign 1st British Armored Division to race ahead with parts of 3rd ID toward west of Baghdad. The turkey crisis would never have happened because it wouldn't be a part of my war plan, anyway. I prefer to keep the staging areas limited to one or two countries, that's it, why need to make more political concessions to another country that's potentially hostile to rebuilding a war-ravaged country -- Iraq?

Instead of a princer movement due to limited manpower, I prefer a single but powerful thrust blasting all way into outer rings of Baghdad. Don't bother to try cross the bridges on the Euphrates River. It's not worth the hassle. We need economy of force, since, we have limited manpower, we need to concentrate our firepower instead of spreading them out even with air superiority.

This would force the Republican Guards to reposition its units east of Baghdad, and this would expose them to powerful allied air strikes facing south and west of Baghdad.

Assign lighter and infantry divisions to encircling Basra, and isolate the smaller cities, forget about trying to assault them, we don't have manpower to do it. As far I am concerned, I think if we're going to assault a single city, Baghdad should be it.

Above all, DON'T STOP MOVING, hit them fast and furious, get the war over with it, fast, period.

I am ANGRY that 1st British Armored Division and 101st Airborne Division are being wasted or geared to secondary roles, this is STUPID, STUPID political mess.

This doesn't make any sense to me, I am lost on such politicking maneuvers. Don't Bush and Blair realize they're playing with young men and women's lives on the political board?

I have to express my frustration with these political leaders.

While it's only eight days into war, the mistakes are tragic and quite obvious even to an amateurish military observer. This is a joke, kids.

After this war is over, I would rather shot both Bush and Blair for messing up the war. For once, I would rather have Rumsfeld shut up, and stop prattling on about being tough, I don't think Rumsfeld even understand the difference between a penetration and a breakthrough, not if it depended on his life.

Dan
 

Siberian HEAT

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And we thought the Vietnam war was restrictive to the military because of political considerations...this war brings new definition to the term. :rolleyes:
 

Cheetah772

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No 1st Cavalry Division?

Hello,

Another thing to mention, perhaps I am mistaken, but there weren't any elements or a fully manned 1st Cavalry Division, the only heavy armored US division in the US Army.

I think there are deployment orders going out to that 1st Cavalry Division, but in retrospect, it's too late.

My feelings are that we should have the 1st Cavalry Division and 1st British Armored Division side by side leading the spreadhead into Iraq first to be followed by 3rd and 4th IDs mopping up the isolated packets of resistance or securing the supply lines.

Both British commandos, Royal Marines, and 1st Marine Expeditionary Division should have been used to encircle Barsa and guard the right flank of heavy divisions making headway west of Euphrates River.

Speed is of essence, and the first hours of war, we saw that, but it soon fell apart after just eight days of war.

Kinda funny to start a war without one of the heaviest armored divisions in the US arsenal....

Dan
 

Tim McBride

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Originally posted by Cheetah772
Hello,

Although my support for the war is still strong, the criticism of how the war is being conducted by both politicians and military commanders remains very strong.

First of all, I am saddened by several mistakes on part of the US military commanders, especially Gen. Franks.

I believe that Franks is mishandling the war right now. For example, I am disgusted at the handling of I MED, it is not designed for land warfare, it is primarily used as a rapid deployment force meant to establish a foothold temporarily, and allow the heavier divisions to make a speedy entry. Now, the MEDs are being used to fight the Republican Guard units around Al Kut 100 miles east of Baghdad on the Tirgis River.
So you would rather have heavy units that can get bogged down in that tight area fight them? Unit that are designed for manuever warfare fight in a confined area? The Marines are the best force for fighting up the river areas.

Second example would be assigning 101st Airborne Division to guarding the supply lines and reinforcing the 3rd ID, IMO, this is a waste of a division. 101st Airborne Division is again designed for paradrops and rapid deployment, not for long and intensive combat.
So we should leave the flanks open? The 101st IS mobile which means it can cover the large exposed flank better in the sense that it can re-deploy rapidly to meet any force that threatens the flank. Which force should be protecting the flank(given the current situation)? Should the 101 be fighting IRaqi Armored units while the 3rd ID watches the flank? WTF? The 101 is the lightest force in the southern theater, it is NOT suited for head on conflict with heavy units.

The way I see it, Bush deserves sharp criticism even at this early stage in the war. I expected Bush and Franks to iron out the flaws and use common sense in war-gaming any scenario in Iraq.
Real war is not a game, no plan survives contact with the enemy. The biggest mistake was when we jumped off, we didn't have the troops in place, after that Franks has done a great job making the BEST of the CURRENT STITUATION given him.

I am furious with Bush, Blair, and Franks. Way I see it, it's such a political mess, everybody is scared of everything. Now, that Bush and Blair got what they wanted: a war with Iraq, and I do support it, but I believe that we has to go ALL WAY with NO LIMITATIONS OR RESTRICTIONS on the military, period.
So we should carpet bomb Baghdad? This will cause the active fighting to end quicker but will make what happens afterwards take 10 times longer. You can't have both. If we wish to be able to stabilize and rebuild IRaq we can't go off half cocked in our battle plans.

If I had my way, I would rather wait for 4th ID, even if it means delaying the war for a few weeks, and assign 1st British Armored Division to race ahead with parts of 3rd ID toward west of Baghdad. The turkey crisis would never have happened because it wouldn't be a part of my war plan, anyway. I prefer to keep the staging areas limited to one or two countries, that's it, why need to make more political concessions to another country that's potentially hostile to rebuilding a war-ravaged country -- Iraq?
I agree we should have waited for the 4th ID to show up, although they really did want to bring them in through Turkey, which was a decent idea, since it would have caused the Iraqi's to split up forces; a desirable thing in warfare. But things don't work out as planned. I think Franks has done a good job with the CURRENT SITUATION given to him.

Hindsight is always 20/20!

Instead of a princer movement due to limited manpower, I prefer a single but powerful thrust blasting all way into outer rings of Baghdad. Don't bother to try cross the bridges on the Euphrates River. It's not worth the hassle. We need economy of force, since, we have limited manpower, we need to concentrate our firepower instead of spreading them out even with air superiority.
I refer to this as 'Hey diddle diddle right up the middle' strategy. A good way to lose troops; something the US DOES have to be concerned with.

This would force the Republican Guards to reposition its units east of Baghdad, and this would expose them to powerful allied air strikes facing south and west of Baghdad.
HUH? By Concetrating our forces we cause the enemy to spread his forces???? Why couldn't the Iraqis just fade into baghdad?

Assign lighter and infantry divisions to encircling Basra, and isolate the smaller cities, forget about trying to assault them, we don't have manpower to do it. As far I am concerned, I think if we're going to assault a single city, Baghdad should be it.
And let the people inside starve? Hum, not the best way to win the good will of the people we'll have to work with once the war is over. Which light units? We've got Marines and the 101, the only light forces next to the British, which, whoops, are clearing the cities.


Above all, DON'T STOP MOVING, hit them fast and furious, get the war over with it, fast, period.
We did! Jesus man, you think within 60 miles of Baghdad in just a few days, isn't fast and furious? We move any faster you are going to start pilling up troops faster the we can replace them. Caution is a good thing some times.

I am ANGRY that 1st British Armored Division and 101st Airborne Division are being wasted or geared to secondary roles, this is STUPID, STUPID political mess.
They are being used WISELY. We are short on forces. Who else given the CURRENT sitiuation should watch the flank? The British 1st Armored is being used as a REACTION force; what a fucking concept, using heavy armor to hit the enemy when you need support instead of having NO support.

This doesn't make any sense to me, I am lost on such politicking maneuvers. Don't Bush and Blair realize they're playing with young men and women's lives on the political board?
I'm sick to fucking death of the second geussing the way the campaing is being conducting. Everything I heard you suggest with the exception of waiting for more forces would only cost MORE lives.

I have to express my frustration with these political leaders.

While it's only eight days into war, the mistakes are tragic and quite obvious even to an amateurish military observer. This is a joke, kids.

After this war is over, I would rather shot both Bush and Blair for messing up the war. For once, I would rather have Rumsfeld shut up, and stop prattling on about being tough, I don't think Rumsfeld even understand the difference between a penetration and a breakthrough, not if it depended on his life.
Its obvious to me some people can't deal with the situation at hand and want to second geuss everything we've done.

SO please excuse my frustration.

If you want to second geuss put some though into it.

_Tim
 

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It seems to perfectly reflect the cavalier attitude of Bush and Rumsfeld.
 

Tim McBride

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Re: No 1st Cavalry Division?

Originally posted by Cheetah772
Hello,

Another thing to mention, perhaps I am mistaken, but there weren't any elements or a fully manned 1st Cavalry Division, the only heavy armored US division in the US Army.

I think there are deployment orders going out to that 1st Cavalry Division, but in retrospect, it's too late.

My feelings are that we should have the 1st Cavalry Division and 1st British Armored Division side by side leading the spreadhead into Iraq first to be followed by 3rd and 4th IDs mopping up the isolated packets of resistance or securing the supply lines.

Both British commandos, Royal Marines, and 1st Marine Expeditionary Division should have been used to encircle Barsa and guard the right flank of heavy divisions making headway west of Euphrates River.

Speed is of essence, and the first hours of war, we saw that, but it soon fell apart after just eight days of war.

Kinda funny to start a war without one of the heaviest armored divisions in the US arsenal....

Dan
I agree we SHOULD have waited for troops, would have helped greatly. But we can't change the past, we have to deal with the CURRENT sistuation if we want to win.

BTW, In no way do I think people shouldn't be able to second geuss the war, I just wish people would be a bit more constructive and deal with the current situation. You can't change the past, except in wargames.

_Tim
 
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Siberian HEAT

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You know who would have been a great commander at this war? Montgomery. He would have invested a chunk of Basra with his Desert Rats, established a heavily fortified defensive line...and then let the militias bash themselves against it. :D

I am not on the ground so I won't second guess anything that has gone on...but I do wish we could somehow get forces at least part way into Basra to give the people there a safe zone they can reach. As we saw today, with the Brits parked out in the desert it is too dangerous for civillians to go out to the relative safety of the UK units. I am sure this weighs heavily on the local commanders who see this going on.

I also believe Saddam is dead. These half-assed stock footage films don't convince me at all. And what is up with Black and White film? And do you really think his top cabinet is going to be sitting around laughing? We are seeing a much better propaganda war coming from the Iraqi side...which is why we are finally trying to pull the plug on his PR folks.

I would also like to see more interviews of regular Iraqi's. Especially in Basra. I want to hear first hand and stated clearly in their language what the militias are doing to civillians down there - and broadcast that worldwide. The embedded media is great, but I think they are too focused on our troops and not enough on the locals. Of course, maybe I just watch the wrong news channels?
 

John Paul

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Originally posted by Siberian HEAT
You know who would have been a great commander at this war? Montgomery. He would have invested a chunk of Basra with his Desert Rats, established a heavily fortified defensive line...and then let the militias bash themselves against it. :D

I am not on the ground so I won't second guess anything that has gone on...but I do wish we could somehow get forces at least part way into Basra to give the people there a safe zone they can reach. As we saw today, with the Brits parked out in the desert it is too dangerous for civillians to go out to the relative safety of the UK units. I am sure this weighs heavily on the local commanders who see this going on.

I also believe Saddam is dead. These half-assed stock footage films don't convince me at all. And what is up with Black and White film? And do you really think his top cabinet is going to be sitting around laughing? We are seeing a much better propaganda war coming from the Iraqi side...which is why we are finally trying to pull the plug on his PR folks.

I would also like to see more interviews of regular Iraqi's. Especially in Basra. I want to hear first hand and stated clearly in their language what the militias are doing to civillians down there - and broadcast that worldwide. The embedded media is great, but I think they are too focused on our troops and not enough on the locals. Of course, maybe I just watch the wrong news channels?
Some of the things i caught regarding Iraqi civilians seems to show them as having a mixed opinion,some are happy that we are there while others seem pretty damned pissed.I liked the guy who kept saying"You will lose,you will lose",wonder how much aid packages they were handing out he scooped up after that.
 

Tim McBride

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Originally posted by John Paul


Some of the things i caught regarding Iraqi civilians seems to show them as having a mixed opinion,some are happy that we are there while others seem pretty damned pissed.I liked the guy who kept saying"You will lose,you will lose",wonder how much aid packages they were handing out he scooped up after that.
I think the Iraqi people are being very carefull. Remember what happened after the first Gulf war? We let them rise up and get slaughtered and never lifted a finger to help. I don't know about you but I would be a bit learly about rising up against saddamm this time.

_Tim
 

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It was completely unrealistic to think the Shia's would welcome us with open arms. We betrayed them in '91 and ever since then all they've heard from the Iraqi regime and foreign aid workers was that their plight was caused by Anglo-American led economic sanctions. That the majority are not fighting us should give us confidence enough. Perhaps if we make their lives better and we remain thick skinned, we'll eventually win them over, but it will take a time.
 

Tim McBride

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Originally posted by Siberian HEAT
I would also like to see more interviews of regular Iraqi's. Especially in Basra. I want to hear first hand and stated clearly in their language what the militias are doing to civillians down there - and broadcast that worldwide. The embedded media is great, but I think they are too focused on our troops and not enough on the locals. Of course, maybe I just watch the wrong news channels?
I think this was the whole point of embedding the media. The US can control much better the footage coming out. The military, contrary to popular belief, is not stupid.

_Tim
 

Tex

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It should also be pointed out that the Baathists, ala the NKVD, are keeping morale with pistol shots to the back of the head to anybody wavering.
 

John Paul

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The only thing i got to say about all this monday morning quarterbacking is that its been going on since last Thursday night.Any legitimate criticism is being lost in just the sheer number of shrill voices screaming I KNOW BETTER,well if you know better quite your day job and submit your resume to the department of defense.I'm sure they would be more than pleased to have the input of people who are obviously more expert in this field than themselves.

Its only been a week people,logistical problems are playing just as much of a role as any other factor,yet no one is talking about the role that logistics is playing in all this.It sounds sexier to say that we are bogged down by just the Iraqis then to add that gas tanks need refueling and the troops need feeding.
 

John Paul

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Originally posted by Tim McBride


I think the Iraqi people are being very carefull. Remember what happened after the first Gulf war? We let them rise up and get slaughtered and never lifted a finger to help. I don't know about you but I would be a bit learly about rising up against saddamm this time.

_Tim
I already gave an opinion on this point in another thread,but it was just about what you are saying here.
 

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It's pretty clear that they expected the war to be over in a week - which didn't happen - and they severely underestimated the effect of Iraqi paramilitary forces (another failure of our intelligence services). Now troops and machines are worn out, hence the franctic deployment of additional forces to the Gulf.
 

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Originally posted by John Paul
The only thing i got to say about all this monday morning quarterbacking is that its been going on since last Thursday night.Any legitimate criticism is being lost in just the sheer number of shrill voices screaming I KNOW BETTER,well if you know better quite your day job and submit your resume to the department of defense.I'm sure they would be more than pleased to have the input of people who are obviously more expert in this field than themselves.

Its only been a week people,logistical problems are playing just as much of a role as any other factor,yet no one is talking about the role that logistics is playing in all this.It sounds sexier to say that we are bogged down by just the Iraqis then to add that gas tanks need refueling and the troops need feeding.
<saracasm>
WHAT you mean I can't just push around those counters and let the computer worry about the logistics????
</saracasm>

THank you John, nice to someone realize Beans and gas play just as important of a role as bullets.

_Tim
 

John Paul

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Originally posted by Specterx
It's pretty clear that they expected the war to be over in a week - which didn't happen - and they severely underestimated the effect of Iraqi paramilitary forces (another failure of our intelligence services). Now troops and machines are worn out, hence the franctic deployment of additional forces to the Gulf.
Hmm that frantic redeployment couldn't be them sending forces to garrison the areas we've already taken could it?Just what is the composistion of these units,and are they reserves,national guard,or regular military?If they are mainly guard and reserves then they are most likely support personnel,MP units,water purification and the other such sundries to not only support our frontline guys but also to help rebuild the infrastructure and provide services needed to the civilian population.
 

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Originally posted by Tim McBride


<saracasm>
WHAT you mean I can't just push around those counters and let the computer worry about the logistics????
</saracasm>

THank you John, nice to someone realize Beans and gas play just as important of a role as bullets.

_Tim
Actually i've been waiting for someone more knowledgable than myself to bring this up,i'm just getting tired of everyone who knows better.

Amatuers talk tactics,Professionals discuss logistics.So under what category do all of us fall?
 

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Originally posted by John Paul


Hmm that frantic redeployment couldn't be them sending forces to garrison the areas we've already taken could it?Just what is the composistion of these units,and are they reserves,national guard,or regular military?If they are mainly guard and reserves then they are most likely support personnel,MP units,water purification and the other such sundries to not only support our frontline guys but also to help rebuild the infrastructure and provide services needed to the civilian population.
Exactly. The only offensive units I know of getting deployed are 4th ID(equipment transitioning the Suez), 1st ID(Already being airlifted); 1st Cav(listed To Deploy), Elements of 1st Armroed(listed To Deploy); 2nd ACR(listed To Deploy). The 10th Mountain is alerted but I doubt they will deploy since they would be better suited to relieve units in Afghanistan. The 3rd ACR is also alerted but is heavy and in the US, it would need to be airlifted to deploy in time to make a difference, and that is a LOT of airlift that could be used for supplies.
The rest are mainly logistic troops an rear area troops. YOu need alot of tail to support that many teeth........

_Tim
 
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Tim McBride

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Originally posted by John Paul


Actually i've been waiting for someone more knowledgable than myself to bring this up,i'm just getting tired of everyone who knows better.

Amatuers talk tactics,Professionals discuss logistics.So under what category do all of us fall?
I know I am an Amatuer and am willing to admit it.

As for Logistics, the big thing is fuel right now for front line troops. Tankers are having to be heavily escorted it seems since the rear areas are not 100% secure. Food and water seem to be in decent supply for troops for the time being, the should have brought enough with them for a few more days. Soon though we'll need to start getting food and water up to the troops and at the same time supply the IRaqi's with something; although its been said most stockpilled food and water before the war.

_Tim
 
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