Immobilized Tank and Bounding Fire

[thively]

A recent game situation had a M10 which was BU and immobilized. During the Mph of the side with the immobilized AFV, could the owning player go CE, then fire the MA as bounding fire?

 

[Doug Leslie]

He could go CE but can't bounding fire until the AFPh since bounding first fire is MP dependent.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Yes he can. An Immobilized vehicle can spend MP e.g., for Delay.

BFF is not MP dependent. You just have to spend MP between BFF shots.

 

[Doug Leslie]

Yes he can. An Immobilized vehicle can spend MP e.g., for Delay.

BFF is not MP dependent. You just have to spend MP between BFF shots.

Can you point me to the rule that says this? Can't find it in any of the obvious places.

 

[thively]

Yes he can. An Immobilized vehicle can spend MP e.g., for Delay.

BFF is not MP dependent. You just have to spend MP between BFF shots.

I think I see the answer, I should have declared a gun duel, and might have gotten off a shot before he fired. My bad. C5.33

 

[Juan SantaX]

Even if you are inmobilized, you can use sD in the movement phase…and that use spends one MP.

I

 

[Doug Leslie]

Even if you are inmobilized, you can use sD in the movement phase…and that use spends one MP.

I

One MP being the operative part. I'm not sure that allowing an immobile vehicle to fire a SD during its MPh means that it can use bounding first fire in the usual way. How many MPs does an immobile vehicle have available to it for firing purposes during the MPh? Does a Matilda (9 MPs and a two ROF) have as many available MPs for firing purposes as a faster vehicle? Logically, why should an AFV with a higher MP factor and good ROF be entitled to more shots than a slower vehicle if neither of them are able to move?
I might well be missing something but is there anything in the rules that allows an immobile vehicle to fire during its MPh apart from the phase when the immobilisation takes place (eg if it is immobilised as part of an overrun)?

 

[aloha_brian]

D8.5 "Assuming an Inherent crew that is not broken/stunnedshocked, a bogged/immobilized vehicle may still expend MP for "non-movement" purposes...."

 

[thively]

One MP being the operative part. I'm not sure that allowing an immobile vehicle to fire a SD during its MPh means that it can use bounding first fire in the usual way. How many MPs does an immobile vehicle have available to it for firing purposes during the MPh? Does a Matilda (9 MPs and a two ROF) have as many available MPs for firing purposes as a faster vehicle? Logically, why should an AFV with a higher MP factor and good ROF be entitled to more shots than a slower vehicle if neither of them are able to move?
I might well be missing something but is there anything in the rules that allows an immobile vehicle to fire during its MPh apart from the phase when the immobilisation takes place (eg if it is immobilised as part of an overrun)?

Doug, I was thinking as you are, and still it seems illogical, but it is clear from D8.5 that an immobilized vehicle can fire.

"D8.5 Assuming an Inherent crew that is not broken/stunned/shocked, a bogged/immobilized vehicle may still expend MP for "non-movement" purposes (e.g., to change TCA, [un]load PRC, fire Smoke Dispensers, etc.), and its firing capabilities are unchanged except as related to its inability to change VCA."

It would make more sense to me if this meant that during the vehicles' Prep/DFph/AFph, rather than its Mph. But this rule doesn't specify which phases it could fire in, leaving one to assume it means any that it could normally fire in, including the Mph. That does seem like something that should be made more clear in the rules.

The other important section is the Bounding First Fire rules, C5.33:

"C5.33 BOUNDING FIRST FIRE: A vehicle First Firing during its own MPh, and having had a continuous LOS to its target for > three MP uses the Case C To Hit DRM. A vehicle wishing to fire at the start of its MPh prior to entry of a new hex (or one that has had a continuous LOS to its target since before the MPh) may do so using Case C; it need not expend Delay MP first to avoid having to use Case C1 or C2. If the Bounding First Firer vehicle declares a shot prior to any MP expenditure, a DEFENDER can still declare a Gun Duel (2.2401) that he might win (due to the Bounding First Firer's use of TH Case C), and thus he could fire before the vehicle expends any MP.

The last sentence is why I posted that I should have declared a gun duel, my Panther might have then gotten off the first shot. I would welcome some more clear rule saying that an immobile vehicle can Bounding First Fire. It is clear to me by the context of the rule section above, that it is assumed that the vehicle is mobile, capable of moving and entering a new hex.

 

[Actionjick]

Doug, I was thinking as you are, and still it seems illogical, but it is clear from D8.5 that an immobilized vehicle can fire.

"D8.5 Assuming an Inherent crew that is not broken/stunned/shocked, a bogged/immobilized vehicle may still expend MP for "non-movement" purposes (e.g., to change TCA, [un]load PRC, fire Smoke Dispensers, etc.), and its firing capabilities are unchanged except as related to its inability to change VCA."

It would make more sense to me if this meant that during the vehicles' Prep/DFph/AFph, rather than its Mph. But this rule doesn't specify which phases it could fire in, leaving one to assume it means any that it could normally fire in, including the Mph. That does seem like something that should be made more clear in the rules.

The other important section is the Bounding First Fire rules, C5.33:

"C5.33 BOUNDING FIRST FIRE: A vehicle First Firing during its own MPh, and having had a continuous LOS to its target for > three MP uses the Case C To Hit DRM. A vehicle wishing to fire at the start of its MPh prior to entry of a new hex (or one that has had a continuous LOS to its target since before the MPh) may do so using Case C; it need not expend Delay MP first to avoid having to use Case C1 or C2. If the Bounding First Firer vehicle declares a shot prior to any MP expenditure, a DEFENDER can still declare a Gun Duel (2.2401) that he might win (due to the Bounding First Firer's use of TH Case C), and thus he could fire before the vehicle expends any MP.

The last sentence is why I posted that I should have declared a gun duel, my Panther might have then gotten off the first shot. I would welcome some more clear rule saying that an immobile vehicle can Bounding First Fire. It is clear to me by the context of the rule section above, that it is assumed that the vehicle is mobile, capable of moving and entering a new hex.

Logical thinking can really lead you astray when it comes to rules interpretations. My recent venture into that morass was in the Allied Troops thread and I got mine handed to me.

It's probably much worse if you view the game through the lens of historical accuracy. I looked at it for the most part as a gamer. I just accepted the rules as written. Easier that way.

Good luck and good gunnin!

 

[Doug Leslie]

Doug, I was thinking as you are, and still it seems illogical, but it is clear from D8.5 that an immobilized vehicle can fire.

"D8.5 Assuming an Inherent crew that is not broken/stunned/shocked, a bogged/immobilized vehicle may still expend MP for "non-movement" purposes (e.g., to change TCA, [un]load PRC, fire Smoke Dispensers, etc.), and its firing capabilities are unchanged except as related to its inability to change VCA."

It would make more sense to me if this meant that during the vehicles' Prep/DFph/AFph, rather than its Mph. But this rule doesn't specify which phases it could fire in, leaving one to assume it means any that it could normally fire in, including the Mph. That does seem like something that should be made more clear in the rules.

The other important section is the Bounding First Fire rules, C5.33:

"C5.33 BOUNDING FIRST FIRE: A vehicle First Firing during its own MPh, and having had a continuous LOS to its target for > three MP uses the Case C To Hit DRM. A vehicle wishing to fire at the start of its MPh prior to entry of a new hex (or one that has had a continuous LOS to its target since before the MPh) may do so using Case C; it need not expend Delay MP first to avoid having to use Case C1 or C2. If the Bounding First Firer vehicle declares a shot prior to any MP expenditure, a DEFENDER can still declare a Gun Duel (2.2401) that he might win (due to the Bounding First Firer's use of TH Case C), and thus he could fire before the vehicle expends any MP.

The last sentence is why I posted that I should have declared a gun duel, my Panther might have then gotten off the first shot. I would welcome some more clear rule saying that an immobile vehicle can Bounding First Fire. It is clear to me by the context of the rule section above, that it is assumed that the vehicle is mobile, capable of moving and entering a new hex.

I was kind of hanging my hat on the definition of bounding first fire in the index: "fire by a vehicle during its own MPh which enables a vehicle to both move and fire in the same phase)"
The use of the word "move" as opposed to "expend MP" seemed to be significant but I have looked a little deeper to find that "Move" is defined as "Move, during: MF/MP dependent actions declared during a unit's move (or the move of > 1 unit moving together), at anytime during that unit(s) expenditure of MF/MP "

So I guess that BFF is okay by an immobilised vehicle, strange though that might seem.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Personally I don't think it's stranger, than e.g., letting Passengers unload from an Immobilized vehicle. MP are (in my mind) sort of an abstraction of time anyway...YMMV.

 

[Andy Bagley]

Doug, I was thinking as you are, and still it seems illogical, but it is clear from D8.5 that an immobilized vehicle can fire.

"D8.5 Assuming an Inherent crew that is not broken/stunned/shocked, a bogged/immobilized vehicle may still expend MP for "non-movement" purposes (e.g., to change TCA, [un]load PRC, fire Smoke Dispensers, etc.), and its firing capabilities are unchanged except as related to its inability to change VCA."

It would make more sense to me if this meant that during the vehicles' Prep/DFph/AFph, rather than its Mph. But this rule doesn't specify which phases it could fire in, leaving one to assume it means any that it could normally fire in, including the Mph. That does seem like something that should be made more clear in the rules.

The other important section is the Bounding First Fire rules, C5.33:

"C5.33 BOUNDING FIRST FIRE: A vehicle First Firing during its own MPh, and having had a continuous LOS to its target for > three MP uses the Case C To Hit DRM. A vehicle wishing to fire at the start of its MPh prior to entry of a new hex (or one that has had a continuous LOS to its target since before the MPh) may do so using Case C; it need not expend Delay MP first to avoid having to use Case C1 or C2. If the Bounding First Firer vehicle declares a shot prior to any MP expenditure, a DEFENDER can still declare a Gun Duel (2.2401) that he might win (due to the Bounding First Firer's use of TH Case C), and thus he could fire before the vehicle expends any MP.

The last sentence is why I posted that I should have declared a gun duel, my Panther might have then gotten off the first shot. I would welcome some more clear rule saying that an immobile vehicle can Bounding First Fire. It is clear to me by the context of the rule section above, that it is assumed that the vehicle is mobile, capable of moving and entering a new hex.

Todd - thanks for posting this (for others - I was the guy with the immobilized M10). I agree with the conclusions here, so my shot was OK. And yes, under C5.33 you could have declared a Gun Duel which I think you'd have won I'm afraid.