"Ignorable" rout destinations

scottf2

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I see this question has been asked before in various ways, but after reading through a few threads, and reading the rout rules multiple times, I'm still not sure of the answer:

10.51 If no non-ignorable building/woods Location can be reached during that RtPh, a broken unit may rout to any terrain hex consistent with the above restrictions and need not rout toward the nearest woods/building Location.

Does "non-ingorable" here refer to the previous mentions in the rout rules of "ignorable" locations (ie: same building or equidistant from KEU) or does it mean any location that can't be legally reached?

As a concrete example: can the broken leader in W8 rout anywhere it wants to (while not getting closer to KEU - so, could it go to W10, for example)? Are the woods hexes in V10/X10 ignorable? They're not "ignorable" by any of the definitions that use the word "ignore" in the rout rules, but they're not legal destinations since they both require getting closer to KEU. In this specific example it doesn't have to rout at all since it's not in OG, but if it were in OG and did have to rout, could it low crawl to W9, and/or rout to W10, or would it be eliminated for FTR?

I've always played that it could rout to W9 or W10 but recently a fairly knowledgeable opponent suggested that wasn't the case since V10/X10 are not "ignorable" based on any of the definitions of ignorable in the routing rules.

Thanks for any clarification - references to parts of the rules I'm missing or a Q&A would be especially appreciated!


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R Hooks

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I'm probably wrong as usual. But I think you go to w10, at that point FF8 is not visible so imo you rout to X10. Also in w10 the L7 enemy is no long visible so you can go to V10. If nothing changes you can certainly reach V10 or X10 on a second rout, first to W10.
 
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lt_steiner

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It looks like you have LOS to both L7 and FF8. You cannot rout to V10 and X10 which are closer to an known enemy unit. You can only rout to W9 or W10.
 

Honosbinda

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It looks like you have LOS to both L7 and FF8. You cannot rout to V10 and X10 which are closer to an known enemy unit. You can only rout to W9 or W10.
This looks correct.

On top of that, the word 'ignore' is not in the ASL index as some type of special word with special game meaning. Hence, its definition is found in the dictionaries. Obviously, one must also intentionally not give attention to (ignore) any illegal rout destinations. They are inherently ignorable.

This notion that the ASLRB is a substitute for the English dictionary is incorrect. One can 'rules-lawyer' themselves into madness if taken to the extreme!
 

klasmalmstrom

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..at that point FF8 is not visible so imo you rout to X10. Also in w10 the L7 enemy is no long visible so you can go to V10....
You can't rout towards an enemy unit that you once had a LOS to during the RtPh - the broken units remember where it has seen enemy units.
 

lightspeed

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You can't rout towards an enemy unit that you once had a LOS to during the RtPh - the broken units remember where it has seen enemy units.
This.

"A10.51 DIRECTION: ...nor may it move toward such an enemy unit after leaving its LOS during that RtPh;..."

It's in the fourth line, after the first semi-colon in the first sentence.

indy
 

scottf2

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Thanks for the responses. As mentioned in the OP, and reiterated by others, X10 and V10 are not legal rout paths because they get closer to (previously) KEU. I think most people play this the same way: there is no legal rout destination within 6 hexes so the 10-2 leader is free to rout anywhere (following rout rules).

It is unfortunate that the rulebook uses the word "ignore" in reference to two very specific circumstances (same building and equidistant locations) and then in the following paragraph uses it in a more general fashion to refer to any non-legal rout destination (why not just say "no legally reachable" instead of "no non-ignorable" which SEEMS to be a more specific phrase)? Additionally, all of the uses of "ignore" in the comprehensive example are of the two aforementioned types. Of course, the rulebook isn't always as well phrased as we might like it to be!

10.51 [EXC: A broken unit in a building need not consider a hex of the same building in which it begins the RtPh as its closest building hex if it prefers to rout out of that building altogether and toward another building/woods hex—even if it must cross Open Ground or another building hex of the same building to do so. A routing unit may also ignore a building/woods hex if that hex is no farther from a Known enemy unit than its starting hex, even if it must rout through that now-ignored hex to reach its destination.]

If no non-ignorable building/woods Location can be reached during that RtPh, a broken unit may rout to any terrain hex consistent with the above restrictions and need not rout toward the nearest woods/building Location.


I wouldn't have questioned this as I've always played it the way most people seem to (that the leader could rout to W9/10) but a far more experienced player than I recently suggested that was not the case, so I wanted to follow up.
 
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EagleIV

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Since the broken unit can't rout to any woods or building since they are all closer to a KEU, they can rout to any location that isn't closer to a KEU. So either W9 or W10 can be the destination since all other locations are closer to a KEU.
 

Tuomo

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My take is that "non-ignorable" means "legal". When you look for places to rout, you toss out illegal destinations, which leaves you with legal ones, which can be ignorable or non-ignorable. You can then ignore the ignorable ones (funny how that word starts to lose meaning once you repeat it often enough) and choose among the non-ignorable ones. When you do that, you have to go to the one that's nearest in MF. If there are none within 6MF, then you're free to rout anywhere, as long as you don't break rout rules along the way (ie, moving closer to KEUs that suddenly come into your LOS, and remembering the KEUs that you previously saw but may no longer be in your immediate LOS).

In this case, nothing is legal (assuming initial LOS to FF7) so the brokie can either stay there (since he's not in OG in normal range of a KEU) or he can rout anywhere (legal) that he wants. Which would leave W9 or W10.
 

Honosbinda

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There is no need to convolute if non-ignorable means anything other than just that. The dictionary definition of ignorable is sufficient to determine what non-ignorable means and we don't have to interpret or guess what the author of the rules meant when using it!

The word does not lose any meaning by repeating it 1 or 1000 times. It only loses meaning when trying to change it to mean something else!

As I said before, nitpicking about the definition of a word that is not defined in the index isn't necessary, although it may be enjoyable when we don't have any opponents to play ASL, which is exactly why I'm bothering to chime in here.

It doesn't matter how much more experienced another player is, it doesn't make them 'more right' about the rules. I can't tell you how many times grognard experts are wrong about these rules when I meet up with them in a tournament.

In fact, I've had far less experienced players be right about the rules when playing me and my decades of vast expertise, so it works both ways -- in case anyone wonders (I'm sure they do) if I even have one speck of humility!

Now go! I say, and play the game, and be done with thine ruminations ?
 

Cpl Uhl

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As a follow up, related, question: when a unit is free "to rout anywhere", must it expend all of its 6 MF or can it stop conveniently along the way, with a friendly leader, for example?
 

klasmalmstrom

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As a follow up, related, question: when a unit is free "to rout anywhere", must it expend all of its 6 MF or can it stop conveniently along the way, with a friendly leader, for example?
You choose the hex you want to rout to - does not have to be 6 MF away.
 

Stewart

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I've always played that it could rout to W9 or W10 but recently a fairly knowledgeable opponent suggested that wasn't the case since V10/X10 are not "ignorable" based on any of the definitions of ignorable in the routing rules.

They aren't ignorable, they are not VALID destinations, so they don't even enter the equation.
Ignorable are VALID locations that you can rout to.
IF they meet certain criteria, these VALID locations can be considered ignorable to the unit routing.


INVALID vs ignorable are not the same thing.

BTW, routing rules are the ones 30yr veterans still screw up.
Rout Phase is summarily dismissed by most players as the phase between ADV FIRE and ADV. Ph.
I see illegal routs in every game I spectate.
 

Eagle4ty

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As Stewart has pointed out, in your example there are no ignorable rout destinations, all possible building/woods locations are invalid rout destinations.
 
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