France: Saddam's Ally

kid kool

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France: Saddam's Ally
by Dick Morris

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/68214.htm

February 4, 2003 -- CRITICS of President Bush say he has failed to rally our "traditional allies" - like France - to support his aggressive efforts to disarm Saddam Hussein. But since the Gulf War, in which France had token involvement, Paris has never been our ally where Iraq is concerned. Indeed, it has been more allied with Iraq than with us.
Throughout the '90s, France constantly pushed for the lifting of economic sanctions against Iraq. Bemoaning the fate of the Iraqi people, the French pushed to allow Saddam to sell oil on the global market (the so-called oil-for-food program). When America and Britain demanded tough controls on the funds from oil sales to be sure they did not go for arms, France objected that such controls would undermine Iraqi sovereignty.

Largely as a result of French pressure, the oil-for-food program was implemented, allowing Saddam to sell 500,000 barrels per day on the open market (about a sixth of his pre-war production).

But Saddam couldn't do much rearming with the oil money, because U.N. inspectors were looking over his shoulder. So in November 1997, he announced that he would bar Americans from the 77-member inspection team. The other inspectors withdrew in protest and solidarity with their American mates. The world was plunged into crisis. Once again, France took Saddam's side.

President Bill Clinton sent two aircraft carriers to the gulf and vowed that Saddam "must comply unconditionally with the will of the international community." French Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine criticized Clinton for giving Saddam the impression that "there would never be a way out of the tunnel [of sanctions]," even if he got rid of all his weapons programs."

France demanded an end to all sanctions and called for unlimited oil sales by Iraq. Then suddenly Saddam seemed to back down in the face of Clinton's pressure and admitted the U.S. inspectors back in.

Had there been concessions to Saddam? Oh no, said Deputy National Security Adviser Sandy Berger: "There's no deal. There's no concessions."

But the French knew better. As Vedrine said, "The Americans bent a little." Pushed by France, the United States agreed to let Saddam increase his oil sales, ultimately letting sales grow to 2 million barrels per day. A concession to Iraq? No way, said Clinton's people: It was a concession to France; we were not giving in to Saddam.

Then, the next year, Saddam barred all U.N. inspectors. The final nail in the coffin of controls on Iraq came in 1999 when, again as a result of a French initiative, all limits on Iraqi oil sales were lifted. With no U.N. inspectors to inhibit him and $20 million a day in oil revenues, Saddam could build whatever weapons he wanted. Courtesy of France.

The only consistency in French policy toward Iraq since the Gulf War has been support for Saddam Hussein to weaken U.N. and U.S. measures against him. To hinge U.S. action on Iraq on French acceptance is like asking for the approval of the old Soviet Union before we moved against communism.

Why is France so pro-Saddam? It's the motive (wrongly) ascribed as behind U.S. enmity toward him: oil. French commercial deals with Middle East terrorist states dominate its foreign policy. It was a French company that risked U.S. sanctions by investing in Iranian oil production and it is French interests that benefit from the tie with Saddam.

Some ally!

Eventually, France will cave to the U.S. position: To fail to do so would be to consign the Security Council, France's only forum for the exercise of global power, to irrelevance. Bush's people said as much over the weekend, noting that a new U.N. resolution approving force was OK with them, but it's not high on their agenda.

France needs the United Nations to appear to be in charge, so that the French veto can appear to be important - and France can appear to still be a world power.
 

markoy

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I applaud the French. They have their interests and opinions and the US should pay attention. 'Old Europe' is an American term, not in my opinion a nice one. But I do think 'New America' should listen to 'Old Europe'.
 

Cheetah772

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Humm...

Marko,

Do you mean that the new America should listen to and obey the Old Europe? It seems that you want America to be put on a short leash, preferably a UN one, is that right, my dear Marko?

Dan
 

markoy

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Re: Humm...

Originally posted by Cheetah772
Marko,

Do you mean that the new America should listen to and obey the Old Europe? It seems that you want America to be put on a short leash, preferably a UN one, is that right, my dear Marko?

Dan
Just like Iraq you mean Dan. In that case yup.....or the Luxembourg Air Force will start smart bombing Texas.
 

Tzar

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Geez guys,

What's all this fuss newspapers and commentators are making about France? Can't anybody read behind the official position and speeches? Are we all blinded by media headlines?

This is just plain old tactical diplomacy. France is bargaining hard its participation and commitment to the conflict. Nothing more, nothing less. You can be sure that France will align itself with Washington soon after some more back-door negotiations. After getting what he wants for France, Chirac will finally say that everything was tried, but war is inevitable nonetheless.

At worst, France would abstain, but I would be somewhat surprised in this case.
 

markoy

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Originally posted by Tzar
Geez guys,

What's all this fuss newspapers and commentators are making about France? Can't anybody read behind the official position and speeches? Are we all blinded by media headlines?

This is just plain old tactical diplomacy. France is bargaining hard its participation and commitment to the conflict. Nothing more, nothing less. You can be sure that France will align itself with Washington soon after some more back-door negotiations. After getting what he wants for France, Chirac will finally say that everything was tried, but war is inevitable nonetheless.

At worst, France would abstain, but I would be somewhat surprised in this case.
hhmmm...interesting point.
 

Tzar

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Originally posted by Deltapooh
Tzar is correct. Germany, France, and Russia are protecting vital interest, not protecting the Iraqi people.

Q: Tzar, do you have a degree in Politics?
You have quite a lot of insight Deltapooh :) You would made a good Sherlock Holmes !

I graduated in Political Science at the University of Montreal in 1994. International relations was the option I selected in 3rd year. Thus my interest for all that stuff. And I am also interested in strategic studies and military affairs, which brought me into this very interesting discussion forum :D
 

LaPalice

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Chirac is a head of state. In his mind the Iraqi people don’t weigh a lot compared to the France’s interests. Currently he shows to Bush that France can be a problem if America disdains her and don’t listen what she has to say. France want her piece of the pie and America don’t want to share.
Tzar is right, of course at the end France will align. The Americans are the stronger, that all. Maybe the French will obtain something, maybe not. And Iraq will be invaded…

La Palice.
 

Deltapooh

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i You have quite a lot of insight Deltapooh You would made a good Sherlock Holmes !

Actually, I graduated Political Science earlier this year with interest in *cough* National *cough* Security*cough*. :D
 

Dog 1

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After the war in Iraq is Won, "lets make a few stops on our way home from the persian gulf. First stop?" ... France. Surprise the F*ck out of those people, eh? "you make a movie?" Not this time, pal. (paraphrased from Denis Leary)


:D :p :nofear: :flag: :rifle:
 

Tzar

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Originally posted by Deltapooh
i You have quite a lot of insight Deltapooh You would made a good Sherlock Holmes !

Actually, I graduated Political Science earlier this year with interest in *cough* National *cough* Security*cough*. :D
Congratulations and welcome to the select club of Political Science graduates ;)
 

Deltapooh

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Thanks Tzar :)

After the war in Iraq is Won, "lets make a few stops on our way home from the persian gulf. First stop?" ... France. Surprise the F*ck out of those people, eh? "you make a movie?" Not this time, pal. (paraphrased from Denis Leary)

Yeah, and our tired troops get their butts handed to them. If DP ever makes a stop to France, it'll be with peace in mind. (Well not total peace. From the beauty of many women I've seen on TV from France [Watched the Travel Channel] I'd have to say I wouldn't mind contributing the improvement of the American-French relation with some.)

Yeah, I'm a *hore! I can be for now. :p
 

Cheetah772

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Graduating....

Deltapooh and Tzar,

No wonder you both love ambigiusity and careful or thorough deliberation before taking action on something important enough to cost people's lives. Me, I prefer to go straight to the source of problem instead of talking to it to death.

I'm not much of a fan for politics, though I am about to graduate with a BA in general history.

In my mind, it's a waste of time analyzing an important issue to death when something has to be done NOW.

For last 12 years, Saddam has been f**king with us, and okay, that's enough for now. It's time to take him out. End of discussion, girls. With all due respect, it's time for Bush Jr. to use tough language in so clear words to North Korea, "Either end your nuclear program, or face nuclear annihilation, Kimmy boy." Prehaps it's time for a real reminder of how awful nuclear explosions can be to a human body. Have anybody forgotten what it was like for these people 60 years ago in Nagaski and Hiroshima? Cut through B.S. and red tape.

For so many years, I have been listening to everybody who continue to lecture on the importance of being tactiful and polite to the heads of the other countries, but I feel this is absolutely stupid. So much can be done if we just cut through a lot of red tape.

I think it's time for a reality check for France and Germany. It's time for Bush to say, "France and Germany, you've had plenty of fun with this anti-Americanism crap, using this to your domestic advantages, okay, that's enough, girls. Either get in line with my program, or get the f**k out of here, will you just f**k shut up. No more B.S., girls."

If you want to play politics, then go play with interns, just don't f**k around with my troops, girls.

This is one of the times I really wished Patton was around, he would go straight to the source of problem, end of discussion, period. Or have Robert E. Lee calm me down....at least he understood the importance of quick action instead of f**king around with interns or drumming up anti-Americanism crap.

I am sick to death of politics. I'll never forgive the Europe for its anti-Americanism crap and their willingness to ignore what America has done so much for Europe. It was like a sharp knife that went through my heart. In fact, I was absolutely shocked at such powerful anti-American sentiments that have been floating around in Europe and the rest of world as well. I am sick of it.

Time for a REAL war to start.

Dan
 

Deltapooh

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Cheetah772,

I went to study politics and national security because I have a list of illnesses that prevent me from joining the military. I wanted to go to West Point, but my body had other ideals. A friend of mine told me that I could still work as a military analysts move on to a better position in politics. He thought I would be perfect for eventually bridging the gap between the military and politicians.

It's never wise to react to a situation rapidly. Doing so limits your time to consider the best course of action. Instead, you just accept the most obvious. That can lead to trouble. It's always better to consider your situation, create options, and choose a course of action that is appropriate, not just convenient.

It's not a talking an issue to death. The only people who do that are those desiring to delay a decision. You take all the information you have about the situation, explore options, and develop COAs. You always look for a better solution until the problem is resolved. (At least that's how its suppose to work. The reality is more complicated.)

Diplomacy is about resolving problems and uniting countries through informed intelligent discussions. When diplomacy fails, governments might choose military action. However, talking is better than shooting. As long as you have something to talk about relevant to the situation, you should explore that option. Diplomacy should be an option even after shots are fired.

I understand the ideal of hitting back hard and cutting through red tape with strong firm words. However, you're dealing with humans with just as much pride and patriotism as you. Some people don't care if we're the most power country on Earth. They'll still plant a foot in our *ss if we step out of line.

Speaking calming and being polite will get your point across in a reasonable manner. Making threats, and kicking *ss might be necessary at times, but usually leads to bloodshed.

I think it's time for a reality check for France and Germany. It's time for Bush to say, "France and Germany, you've had plenty of fun with this anti-Americanism crap, using this to your domestic advantages, okay, that's enough, girls. Either get in line with my program, or get the f**k out of here, will you just f**k shut up. No more B.S., girls."


It would solve nothing, disrespect the French and German people, and likely turn poltical manuevering into a national agenda. We can't go around telling people our minds and expect them to just cop down and take it. The French and German peoples are just as patriotic as we are. They'll tell us to go to hell, and to get the hell off their land.

Now the US is really in trouble because we lost two crucial allies in a critical point on the planet. Until our little temper tandrum, Germany and France would have allowed us to focus our attention on immediate threats. Now we have re-commit to Europe with two less friends.

It's nothing personal Cheetah772. It's just politics. That's how the system works. As Tzar said, you must read between the lines. Privately, France has informed the US it would be willing to support a war effort. While I find their tactics distasteful, I know we do the same, so can't be to angry.

If you want to play politics, then go play with interns, just don't f**k around with my troops, girls.

This is one of the times I really wished Patton was around, he would go straight to the source of problem, end of discussion, period. Or have Robert E. Lee calm me down....at least he understood the importance of quick action instead of f**king around with interns or drumming up anti-Americanism crap.

I am sick to death of politics.


Well, Cheetah772, its not that simple. Patton and Robert E. Lee were military commanders. Decisive action was a neccessaity. Politics is alot different. I can understand you are sick of politics, but whether you realize it or not, politicians are the ones Patton and Lee would rely on to achieve their mission. If Politicians started just reacting on the fly, you would feel better, but that would be tempered by the sight of thousands of yound men and women returning home in body bags. Politicians can make or break a war.

Many politicans are wimps and heartless apes. However, some really give a hoot. Just because you do alot of talking doesn't mean you're weak. It means you're thinking and trying to map out solutions. The first shots of war are not fired on the battlefield. They are fired in small offices where men and women gather to decide the fate of their country.
 

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Originally posted by Dog 1
After the war in Iraq is Won, "lets make a few stops on our way home from the persian gulf. First stop?" ... France. Surprise the F*ck out of those people, eh? "you make a movie?" Not this time, pal. (paraphrased from Denis Leary)


:D :p :nofear: :flag: :rifle:
France would kick your ass. Bigtime. Oh yeah...:hurt: :rifle: :ar15: :nofear:
 

Dog 1

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Originally posted by markoy


France would kick your ass. Bigtime. Oh yeah...:hurt: :rifle: :ar15: :nofear:


An actual letter home from a marine with
>the multinational force in Bosnia:
>
>Dear Dad,
>A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel(Bosnia):
>A French army officer walked up to me in the PX and told me he
>thought we (Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
>provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn't
>be able to count on the support of France.
>
>I told him that it didn't surprise me. Since we had come to
>France's rescue in World War I, World War II, Vietnam and the Cold War,
>their ingratitude and jealousy was due to surface (again) at some point
>in the near future anyway. I also told him that is why France is a
>third-rate military power with a socialist economy and a bunch of
>pansies for soldiers. I additionally told him that America, being a
>nation of deeds and action, not words, would do whatever it had to do,
and
>France's support, if it ever came, was only for show anyway.
>
>Just like in all NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
>burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
>that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
>other way around.
>
>He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told him if he
>would like to, I w! ould meet him outside in front of the Burger King and
>whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National Brigade East, thus
>demonstrating that even the smallest American had more fight in
>him than the average Frenchman. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

>Dad, tell Mom I love her.
> Your loving daughter
> M----- B--- J----------
> LtCol., USMC




Take that you commy Rat!!!!!!



:p :p :p :p
 

markoy

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Originally posted by Dog 1




An actual letter home from a marine with
>the multinational force in Bosnia:
>
>Dear Dad,
>A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel(Bosnia):
>A French army officer walked up to me in the PX and told me he
>thought we (Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to
>provoke a war in Iraq. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn't
>be able to count on the support of France.
>
>I told him that it didn't surprise me. Since we had come to
>France's rescue in World War I, World War II, Vietnam and the Cold War,
>their ingratitude and jealousy was due to surface (again) at some point
>in the near future anyway. I also told him that is why France is a
>third-rate military power with a socialist economy and a bunch of
>pansies for soldiers. I additionally told him that America, being a
>nation of deeds and action, not words, would do whatever it had to do,
and
>France's support, if it ever came, was only for show anyway.
>
>Just like in all NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the
>burden, and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact
>that this French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the
>other way around.
>
>He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told him if he
>would like to, I w! ould meet him outside in front of the Burger King and
>whip his ass in front of the entire Multi-National Brigade East, thus
>demonstrating that even the smallest American had more fight in
>him than the average Frenchman. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

>Dad, tell Mom I love her.
> Your loving daughter
> M----- B--- J----------
> LtCol., USMC


Take that you commy Rat!!!!!!


Here is a letter from Lt. John Phillipe to his family.

Dear Family,

I am currently serving in Bosnia with soldiers from many differing countries. Most of the soldiers seem professional and are good to be around. However, there is one exception and that is the US troops. They tend to walk around alot breathing in and putting their arms out like they have tennis balls under their arms. They constantly talk of going in and sorting out the Serbs, they just want to kill people. They also chew gum like children and chew tobacco like cowboys. They constantly knock into to people and then say stupid stuff like '...you want a piece of me...' I beleive this phrase to be a gay one, like touch me or something like that. They are also very good at having negligent discharges (weapon going off) and as result they tend to shoot their friends. I beleive their pilots do that as well, due to taking speed. They also rely on technology, not on the basics of just being a soldier.

I actually spoke to one, who was astonished that I could not speak fluent english. Thus demonstaring his clear ignorance. He told me of his countries will to takle over the world and kill third world soldiers with million dollar bombs and the brag about it. he also bragged that they only suffered a couple of hundred casualties in the last gulf war, almost all by freindly fire. That was until I pointed out the 23% US casualty rate due to Gulf War Syndrome - which actually means more US casualties than Iraqi. After our conversation he got drunk and tried to bum me. Silly americano.

This letter was found on the Internet, and it is real.
 

Dog 1

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Originally posted by markoy



Take that you commy Rat!!!!!!


Here is a letter from Lt. John Phillipe to his family.

Dear Family,

I am currently serving in Bosnia with soldiers from many differing countries. Most of the soldiers seem professional and are good to be around. However, there is one exception and that is the US troops. They tend to walk around alot breathing in and putting their arms out like they have tennis balls under their arms. They constantly talk of going in and sorting out the Serbs, they just want to kill people. They also chew gum like children and chew tobacco like cowboys. They constantly knock into to people and then say stupid stuff like '...you want a piece of me...' I beleive this phrase to be a gay one, like touch me or something like that. They are also very good at having negligent discharges (weapon going off) and as result they tend to shoot their friends. I beleive their pilots do that as well, due to taking speed. They also rely on technology, not on the basics of just being a soldier.

I actually spoke to one, who was astonished that I could not speak fluent english. Thus demonstaring his clear ignorance. He told me of his countries will to takle over the world and kill third world soldiers with million dollar bombs and the brag about it. he also bragged that they only suffered a couple of hundred casualties in the last gulf war, almost all by freindly fire. That was until I pointed out the 23% US casualty rate due to Gulf War Syndrome - which actually means more US casualties than Iraqi. After our conversation he got drunk and tried to bum me. Silly americano.

This letter was found on the Internet, and it is real.



are you saying that mine is not Real?

your just a wimp! go back to drinking wine and jacking off and leave the real warfare to the real Men
:D :p :p :p :p
 
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