D3.31 AFV's MPh and Firing CMG+BMG

[TMike]

I'm reading ASLRB D3.31. If I understand what I'm reading right, then...

A)
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank fires bmg and/or cmg
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank stops
...
Advancing Fire Phase... tank cannot fire anything.

B)
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank fires MA, retains ROF
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank stops
...
Advancing Fire Phase... tank can fire any or all bmg, cmg, MA

Is this correct?

 

[Sparafucil3]

Case A is most certainly correct.

Case B is wrong (or at least I think it is):

D3.32 FINAL FIRE: ... However, if the vehicle did not exhaust its Multiple ROF during its MPh, and did not fire any other weapons (including PRC) during its MPh, it may fire that Multiple ROF weapon (only) again once (C5.3) during its AFPh using the Case C To Hit DRM for ordnance

It gets even more confusing about when you can use the rate within the same movement phase:

D3.51 MAINTAINING CA: ... Once any vehicular weapon fires, its other weapons may fire in that phase only from that same hex [EXC: OVR; and MA retaining a Multiple ROF may fire again from another hex if the previous shot(s) were Bounding First Fire].

Some read this to mean if any other weapon fires, all fire must be from the same location, including any rate shots. Some read that to mean even if you got rate, you can move to another hex. I think the jury is still out on this one. You could do a search around the forum and find at least one other thread on this started by JR. If you are somewhat confused, you are in good company. -- jim

 

[TMike]

Okay, so if I'm following correctly, that means we have three potential cases like so...

A)
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank fires bmg and/or cmg
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank stops
...
Advancing Fire Phase... tank cannot fire anything.

B)
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank fires MA, retains ROF
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank stops
...
Advancing Fire Phase... tank can fire MA once.

C)
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank fires bmg (and/or cmg) and MA all at same target, retains ROF
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank stops
...
Advancing Fire Phase... tank can fire MA once.

 

[Sparafucil3]

C)
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank fires bmg (and/or cmg) and MA all at same target, retains ROF
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank stops
...
Advancing Fire Phase... tank can fire MA once.

A & B look correct to my eye. C could go either way. First, the relevant rule section:

D3.51 MAINTAINING CA: ... Once any vehicular weapon fires, its other weapons may fire in that phase only from that same hex [EXC: OVR; and MA retaining a Multiple ROF may fire again from another hex if the previous shot(s) were Bounding First Fire].

Now some Q&A. Here is one Sam Belcher's collection:

D 3.51 (last sentence before brackets) If a vehicle fires its MG
armament, but NOT its MA, as Bounding First Fire, does one consider
the MA to "maintain ROF", so that the vehicle may move to another hex
to fire its MA. No.

...or MUST one fire the MA from the same hex as the MG, just hoping
the ROOF is maintained, so that the vehicle may move further and fire
its MA from another hex? Yes.

This comes from Sam Belcher's collection of Perry Sez located online
at: http://www.dicetower.com/ASL/PerrySez/PerrySezChapD.htm

and this from Romanowski's collection:

D3.51 & E7.5 May an AFV use Bounding First Fire in one hex and then
Light AA fire in a different hex (or vice versa)?
A. Only if it BFFs with MA, retains ROF, and then undertakes Light AA
fire using MA only (but not vice versa). [Compil9]

The Belcher Q&A would make it play as you wish. The Romanowski Q&A brings a little question into the matter, but could be seen as consistent with the Belcher Q&A. I have sent all of this to Perry as well as speaking with him at a playtest-a-thon at Chez Argent. His initial reaction was to go with the Belcher Q&A, but then saw the Romanowski Q&A and paused. He decided to give it some more thought before answering. For now, I lean toward the Belcher interpretation, but I can see how some would lean toward the "all shots from the same hex" as well. As I said, if you are a bit confused, you are in good company. -- jim

 

[TMike]

Okay, Thanks!
So probably best to establish between players ahead of time.

As an aside, it's amazing after as many years ASL has been out that this question is still out there! grin!

 

[Blackcloud6]

How does A7.1 affect this?

...but no unit may fire its inherent FP/SW/Gun in more than one fire phase?

 

[Sparafucil3]

How does A7.1 affect this?

I am not sure what question you are asking. I assume you are asking may the gun fire in AFPh. If so, have a look at D3.32. As long as the MA maintains rate, it is specifically allowed to fire in AFPh. If not, let me know and I will do my best to answer your question. -- jim

 

[Sparafucil3]

One other thing I want to add to this discussion. When an AFV bounding fires its MG's, it would be marked bounding fired regardless of whether the MA gets rate or not. This is the one thing that irks me about this whole discussion. If Sam's Q&A is to be followed, it would lead to a situation in which a vehicle already marked as having been fired would be allowed to fire again. I think this is what Fred was getting at with his question. Sure wish Perry would weigh in. -- jim

 

[TMike]

Hoping not to muddy the waters, but then also VASL's bounding fire counter has option to list ~what~ bounding fired -- AAMG, CMG, BMG, MA...

eek.

 

[apbills]

I am confused about the confusion over the Q&A. I must be missing something because I see them being consistent.

In both cases, you can only fire your weapons in one hex. (as D3.51 indicates)

In both cases, you have the D3.51 exception for MA ROF. If you got ROF with the MA (in the one hex with all other weapons or none as the case may be), you can fire the MA, and only the MA, again in another hex.

D3.51 does not directly limit the type of fire you can take with your MA after getting ROF. If no other rules limit the type of fire you choose (like Light AA in this case) you are free to use your rate as you see fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMike
C)
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank fires bmg (and/or cmg) and MA all at same target, retains ROF
Movement Phase... tank moves
Movement Phase... tank stops
...
Advancing Fire Phase... tank can fire MA once.

Actually the relevant rule section for this is D3.32.

However, if the vehicle did not exhaust its Multiple ROF during its MPh, and did not fire any other weapons (including PRC) during its MPh, it may fire that Multiple ROF weapon (only) again once (C5.3) during its AFPh using the Case C To Hit DRM for ordnance, or halved FP for MG/IFE if not in Motion; or Case C4/quartered FP, if in Motion.

D3.3 also limits fire in the AFPh when it states "A vehicle (including its PRC) with either a Prep Fire or Bounding Fire counter cannot fire during its AFPh." If you fire any weapon that did not get ROF you put a BF counter on the vehicle, preventing another shot in the AFPh.

As stated, case C is not legal since it did fire other weapons during its MPh. The only time you get an additional shot in the AFPh is if the only weapon fired during BFF was the MA and it got ROF.

 

[apbills]

One other thing I want to add to this discussion. When an AFV bounding fires its MG's, it would be marked bounding fired regardless of whether the MA gets rate or not. This is the one thing that irks me about this whole discussion. If Sam's Q&A is to be followed, it would lead to a situation in which a vehicle already marked as having been fired would be allowed to fire again. I think this is what Fred was getting at with his question. Sure wish Perry would weigh in. -- jim

Now I understand the confusion. The real question is this:

If a vehicle fires any of its non-ROF weapons, is it allowed to use the possible rate of its ROF weapons?

Since you place a BF counter on the vehicle once it has fired those weapons, it would seem you would not. However, the Q&A seem to indicate you could (at least during the MPh as BFF). The rules also indicate you can use multiple rate in different hexes, however, they never cover the situation where other weapons were fired - they just address the MA firing.

My gut feel is you should be able to get the rate shot as part of MPh. I don't see anything in the ASOP that would prevent a vehicle that has rate from firing with a BF counter in place. The BF counter prevents fire during the AFPh. Other rules prevent non-rate weapons from firing more than once.

 

[Sparafucil3]

If a vehicle fires any of its non-ROF weapons, is it allowed to use the possible rate of its ROF weapons?

Since you place a BF counter on the vehicle once it has fired those weapons, it would seem you would not. However, the Q&A seem to indicate you could (at least during the MPh as BFF). The rules also indicate you can use multiple rate in different hexes, however, they never cover the situation where other weapons were fired - they just address the MA firing.

Right. The exception in D3.51 and the Q&A seems to allow that.

My gut feel is you should be able to get the rate shot as part of MPh. I don't see anything in the ASOP that would prevent a vehicle that has rate from firing with a BF counter in place. The BF counter prevents fire during the AFPh. Other rules prevent non-rate weapons from firing more than once.

You are correct about the others rules reference up thread not allowing a unit to fire in AFPh with a bounding fire counter on it. I would argue the whole idea of shooting a non-ROF weapon--which ends with the AFV marked as bounding fired--would preclude shots from another location and that the MA and all rate shots would have to take place in the same Location, but I can see how it could be argued from the other point. It seems clear, but its not. JMO. -- jim

 

[apbills]

The sentence in D3.51 is:

Once any vehicular weapon fires, its other weapons may fire in that phase only from that same hex [EXC: OVR; and MA retaining a Multiple ROF may fire again from another hex if the previous shot(s) were Bounding First Fire].

The exception does not limit the MA ROF shot due to any other non-ROF shots being taken. With this wording I would go with the multi-hex ROF capability regardless of firing other weapons.

I think that is the only reference to firing in the same hex so I would assume that exception would counter it without a conflict in the rest of the rules.

 

[Sparafucil3]

The sentence in D3.51 is:

Once any vehicular weapon fires, its other weapons may fire in that phase only from that same hex [EXC: OVR; and MA retaining a Multiple ROF may fire again from another hex if the previous shot(s) were Bounding First Fire].

The exception does not limit the MA ROF shot due to any other non-ROF shots being taken. With this wording I would go with the multi-hex ROF capability regardless of firing other weapons.

I think that is the only reference to firing in the same hex so I would assume that exception would counter it without a conflict in the rest of the rules.

I agree. What torques me is that once the other weapons fire, the vehicle would be marked with a Bounding Fire counter. If the MA maintains rate, it can move to another hex and shoot again despite being so marked. It also opens the can of worms regarding IF from another hex as well. -- jim

 

[apbills]

I agree. What torques me is that once the other weapons fire, the vehicle would be marked with a Bounding Fire counter. If the MA maintains rate, it can move to another hex and shoot again despite being so marked. It also opens the can of worms regarding IF from another hex as well. -- jim

I think that is more a mechanics issue given the system did not provide seperate counters for each weapon on a vehicle. Infantry/SW do not have this problem. VASL solves it.

Agreed on the IF thing, but then IF got screwed up with the errata anyway. I also see such a low chance of hitting anything given BFF/IF that it isn't going to come into play much.