Crew survival question

Doug Leslie

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The question I have is whether being marked with a CC counter prevents use of non-CC Reaction Fire in general. A4.7 clearly says that being marked with a CC counter prevents Advance. D7.21 says, "After completing {the CC-RF attack}, that DEFENDER and all of its possessed SW (including those inherent) and Guns are marked with a CC counter, if the vehicle has survived, to prohibit non-CC Reaction Fire attacks." What is not clear is whether this prohibition applies only if the unit acquired its CC counter making a CC-RF attack, or if it applies more generally to any unit marked with a CC counter, no matter how the CC counter was acquired. For instance a crew manning a concealed Gun lets a jeep unload halfsquad in its hex. Per D6.5 a CC counter is placed. There are two aspects. First, does the CC counter apply to the gun/crew in addition to the halfsquad, or only to the halfsquad? If the CC counter does apply to the gun/crew, is it now prohibited from using non-CC RF?

JR
If you check the OVR flowchart in the box relating to "Staying in the Location" it states that, when a vehicle remains in the hex, all units are marked by a CC counter and are bound by TPBF. It is difficult to see what difference it makes if the vehicle moves off after depositing its passenger as the principle must logically remain the same. The sequence would therefore be that the crew would firstly have to use TPBF against the dismounting HS and jeep (or use the ITT to fire the gun at the HS and probably the jeep if HE is used).
Thereafter, assuming that the HS is not KIA, a CC counter is placed and rule D7.22 applies which stipulates that non-CC reaction fire can only be performed by an unbroken DEFENDER in an OVR location and not beneath a CC/Melee counter. It therefore appears that the crew cannot use non-CC reaction fire if an OVR subsequently occurs. I think that it can however use OVR prevention because C5.64 makes no mention of any prohibition on a unit covered by a CC counter doing this.
 

jrv

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If you check the OVR flowchart in the box relating to "Staying in the Location" it states that, when a vehicle remains in the hex, all units are marked by a CC counter and are bound by TPBF. It is difficult to see what difference it makes if the vehicle moves off after depositing its passenger as the principle must logically remain the same. The sequence would therefore be that the crew would firstly have to use TPBF against the dismounting HS and jeep (or use the ITT to fire the gun at the HS and probably the jeep if HE is used).
Thereafter, assuming that the HS is not KIA, a CC counter is placed and rule D7.22 applies which stipulates that non-CC reaction fire can only be performed by an unbroken DEFENDER in an OVR location and not beneath a CC/Melee counter. It therefore appears that the crew cannot use non-CC reaction fire if an OVR subsequently occurs. I think that it can however use OVR prevention because C5.64 makes no mention of any prohibition on a unit covered by a CC counter doing this.
The crew does not have to use TPBF because the hex was not entered by an Infantry/Cavalry MMC [A8.312]. A vehicle entered with Passengers and unloaded them. On unloading they became Infantry, but they did not enter the Location as Infantry; they were already in the Location and expended MF as Infantry to unload. There would be no requirement for Reaction Fire of any kind either. Since they did not use D7.22, I remain unclear whether the restriction D7.22 applies to all CC counters placed, or only to those placed when a unit uses CC-RF.

JR
 

Doug Leslie

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"jrv, post: 1912006, member: 6623"]The crew does not have to use TPBF because the hex was not entered by an Infantry/Cavalry MMC [A8.312]. A vehicle entered with Passengers and unloaded them. On unloading they became Infantry, but they did not enter the Location as Infantry; they were already in the Location and expended MF as Infantry to unload. There would be no requirement for Reaction Fire of any kind either. Since they did not use D7.22, I remain unclear whether the restriction D7.22 applies to all CC counters placed, or only to those placed when a unit uses CC-RF.

JR
The wording of A8.312 is a little unclear but, given the terms of A12.151 which does not make it compulsory for defending units to fire at enemy infantry that inadvertently ends its MPH in the bypassed location, I think that you are correct that the gun crew is not obliged to fire at the dismounting half squad.

Whatever it does though, a CC counter is going to be placed at the end of the half squad's MPH and I am unaware of any rule that suggests such a counter only affects one side and not the other. The terms of D.722 seems pretty clear that being under a CC counter prohibits non-CC reaction fire and there is no qualification with regard to how the CC counter came to be placed.

It is interesting that some situations that result in opposing units ending movement in the same location do not have a rule specifying that a CC counter has to be placed. Clearly, that has practical implications by allowing a gun in the same location as a surviving/abandoning crew to use non-CC reaction fire and allowing a surviving vehicular crew to use advance movement. How would you play it as a matter of interest?
Until yesterday I would have placed the CC counter without really thinking about it! Having pondered on this for a while, I wonder whether there is some method in the apparent rule book madness? If the only exceptions to the "place a CC counter" rule are when vehicular crews abandon their vehicle, perhaps the rationale is that, since they have to expend all of their MF in doing so, it is not unreasonable that they should be allowed to advance out of the location rather than enter close combat. Compare with other non-berserk or human wave MMC which might be able to move out of the location during the MPh if they have sufficient MF to do so. It might also have been determined that vehicular crews are too small to pose enough of a distraction to prevent non-CC reaction fire. So, on balance, I think that a CC counter should only be placed if the rules specifically say so.
 
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klasmalmstrom

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D6.5:
"...PRC may unload or Bail Out in an enemy-occupied hex with no special rules or consequences unless they do so from a vehicle in Bypass (A12.151); place a CC counter to show they are not held in Melee...."

As JR pointed out, here when a crew Abandons a vehicle or survives a CS DR it is not mentioned that a CC counter is placed. Whether this is an oversight or nor, one can only speculate.
 

Doug Leslie

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D6.5:
"...PRC may unload or Bail Out in an enemy-occupied hex with no special rules or consequences unless they do so from a vehicle in Bypass (A12.151); place a CC counter to show they are not held in Melee...."

As JR pointed out, here when a crew Abandons a vehicle or survives a CS DR it is not mentioned that a CC counter is placed. Whether this is an oversight or nor, one can only speculate.
Should we not assume that it isn't an oversight until official errata say otherwise? Or even a "Perry Sez"?
 
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