Creating BCT's

Dr Zaius

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I'm working on what could turn into a fairly large scenario and I have an idea that seems like it might make things easier for the player. Instead of having a million units cluttering up the map, is it practical to simply task organize some units into brigade combat teams (BCT)? Let's say I have the following OOB:

1INF Bde
-- 3-89FA
-- 4-35ENG

Is there any reason that these shouldn't be task organized into a single unit? If the player desires, he can always remove the unit from the BCT for whatever reason if the need arises. Is there any adverse effect to setting things up like this?

It seems to me that this would be the way to go as this is how real life brigades operate. If there is a fairly high density of units in a small area, this also seems like a good way to keep them from "stepping" on each others' footprint and causing battlefield friction. :cool:
 

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Don Maddox said:
I'm working on what could turn into a fairly large scenario and I have an idea that seems like it might make things easier for the player. Instead of having a million units cluttering up the map, is it practical to simply task organize some units into brigade combat teams (BCT)? Let's say I have the following OOB:

1INF Bde
-- 3-89FA
-- 4-35ENG

Is there any reason that these shouldn't be task organized into a single unit? If the player desires, he can always remove the unit from the BCT for whatever reason if the need arises. Is there any adverse effect to setting things up like this?

It seems to me that this would be the way to go as this is how real life brigades operate. If there is a fairly high density of units in a small area, this also seems like a good way to keep them from "stepping" on each others' footprint and causing battlefield friction. :cool:
I'm working on approval to release the OOB we used for our division exercise. This is the way we built BCT's:

The main icon would be 1 BCT (armor brigade icon). Attached under the icon is TF 1-22 INF, TF 1-66 AR, 3-66 AR, 4-42 FA, and 229 ENG Bn, all are included under the icon. G/10 CAV and 4 FSB as assigned units.

You're on the right track!
 

Dr Zaius

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CPangracs said:
I'm working on approval to release the OOB we used for our division exercise. This is the way we built BCT's:

The main icon would be 1 BCT (armor brigade icon). Attached under the icon is TF 1-22 INF, TF 1-66 AR, 3-66 AR, 4-42 FA, and 229 ENG Bn, all are included under the icon. G/10 CAV and 4 FSB as assigned units.

You're on the right track!
Exactly what I was thinking earlier. This approach allows the commander to break down the brigade into separate components if need be, or to simply OPCON one of the battalions to another command. Two questions:

1. Since all of the combat strength is being modelled inside the battalions, I take it you are using a strength of 1 or something similar for the brigade armor icon itself? By the time the battalions are task organized into it, it should have a strength between 30-60 I would imagine.

2. Are you also assigning a brigade HQ unit, or do you simply place the brigade under the command of the division HQ?
 

Dr Zaius

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Using this rationale, it now appears obvious to me that the scenarios that were originally released with DA are really simplistic compared to what is possible within the bounds of the game engine. Now that Col Lunsford has upped the unit limit to 300/side, that gives scenario authors a lot more elbow room to create far more detailed OOB's.

I do have this question though: are there any game-engine issues with creating really detailed scenarios that use 200-250 units on a side? Granted, the vast majority of these would be task organized into BCT's with what I have in mind so the screen will still appear reasonable, however, each unit still counts against the overall unit limitation. With that in mind, will having so many units hurt anything? I take it the game engine will still be able to handle the logistics side of things with no problems, right?
 

Dr Zaius

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I also found this:

Jim Lunsford said:
Remember, you play a division or corps commander in the game. You make critical decisions that affect your overall plan at a fairly high level...

If you insist on managing minute details, create a "HQ" by building a "shell" maneuver unit and assigning it 1-2 RCP (ex: Mech Bde with a RCP of 1). Next, build subordinate units (in this example: mech and armor battalions). Then attach the subordinate units to the higher unit to create a proper task organized unit.
I understand what Jim is saying here, however, let me also make an additional point. At the CGSC students are in a true "multiplayer" environment where they can a) develop a plan, b) assume the roles of command at different echelons, c) execise command and make decisions at the appropriate level. Part of what students are being taught is "how to think" about battlefield problems and challenges, but they are also being taught not to micromanage subordinate commands. Commanders have to develop a reasonable plan, then brief their subordinates and allow them to function with as much freedom as the situation allows. This is a very difficult lesson to teach and a very hard lesson for any student to learn and take to heart. Using different methods, I taught the same thing to NCO's. Teaching not to micromanage is difficult because it is human nature to want to do so, especially when the price of failure is so high. Thus Jim's warning about respecting the scope of the simulation.

Having said that, I can think of two additional points that need to be made.

First, DA wargamers are not exactly in the same situation as CGSC students. The vast majority of the battles will probably take place against the AI, or perhaps against a human opponent via PBEM. Thus the wargamer is assuming the role for all the major commanders. There is no multiplayer "team" to work within, thus the wargamer will likely have cause to micromanage a bit more as he has no teammates to work with.

Second, there are some functions within the DA engine that work best with more detailed OOB's. The first one that jumps to mind mind is air assault operations. As we have already discussed in other threads, aviation units can only lift units of equal size or less. Since units can't really be broken down, this means that artificial brigade-sized lift elements need to be created in order to air assault infantry brigades. Instead of doing this, we could simply build very detailed OOB's and task organize them into BCT's. This would allow players to "break the unit down" for it to be lifted in battalion-sized elements by realistic aviation assets. During most situations, BCT's composed of task organized battalions will remain as a brigade througout the duration of the fight. Thus the entire brigade appears as one unit on the map and doesn't really add much in the way of micromanagement.

If one were to create an entire corps using this model for task-organized BCT's, the map really wouldn't be that crowded. You would probably end up with around 200 total units(only about 1/4 of these would be on the screen). Since each BCT contains 4-6 subordinate commands, there wouldn't be any more units on-screen then there are in the larger scenarios that shipped with DA. This would still leave 100 "slots" for convoys, which I would think is more than enough.
 

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Don Maddox said:
If one were to create an entire corps using this model for task-organized BCT's, the map really wouldn't be that crowded. You would probably end up with around 200 total units(only about 1/4 of these would be on the screen).
So can Decisive Action model large battles like 2 divisions vs. a corps? Could it do the large battles in the Middle East?
 

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NBrenner6 said:
So can Decisive Action model large battles like 2 divisions vs. a corps? Could it do the large battles in the Middle East?
Most definitely. Like I stated in a previous post, I created the COMPLETE Russo-Polish war on a HUGE scale, and it works fine,...although another simulation was used in its stead.:mad:

There are some "workaraounds" you can use to create larger-scale maps and scenarios. The Russo-Polish war required a map 2x the size normally allowed by DA. I recreated close-to-actual movement rates by having the terrain coded at nothing less than restricted (yellow), then working from there for the marshes and other difficult terrain. In effect, because each terrain square is SUPPOSED to equal 1km, mine were 2km. I did a time/distance test, and it was almost perfect.

Like I have told good old kbluck time and again, you shouldn't get discouraged with a simulation or game just because it doesn't do things exactly the way YOU think it should. You should be able to MAKE the program "SIMULATE" your vision!:)
 

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Is there any way you could post your Russo-Polish scenario? Those are the things that are needed to show off DA capabilities.
 

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cbelva said:
Is there any way you could post your Russo-Polish scenario? Those are the things that are needed to show off DA capabilities.
Again, I need to get authorization to release anything I create at the school.:mad:
 

Dr Zaius

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CPangracs said:
Again, I need to get authorization to release anything I create at the school.:mad:
Understood.

I'm reworking the scenario I'm currently designing with this new concept. It is yielding much more realistic results and it isn't using as many units as I thought it would. 300 units/side should be quite a bit more than I need even for a scenario of this scale. This is definitely the way to design units.
 

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CPangracs said:
I'm working on approval to release the OOB we used for our division exercise. This is the way we built BCT's:

The main icon would be 1 BCT (armor brigade icon). Attached under the icon is TF 1-22 INF, TF 1-66 AR, 3-66 AR, 4-42 FA, and 229 ENG Bn, all are included under the icon. G/10 CAV and 4 FSB as assigned units.
I take it that you are breaking the DISCOM down into battalion-sized elements which are assigned under each BCT, right? I guess this gives the BCT a little more flexibility in moving around the battlefield, but other than that what advandages does this have over leaving it as a single DISCOM element?

I see you have "G/10 CAV" listed. What exactly is this? Is this one troop of the divisional cavalry squadron?
 

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I'm working on a ADF East Timor "gone wrong scn" - and I'm having trouble given the scale of the engagement - at most on either side will be 1-2 Bdes, let alone divisions, plus the expected AO for the subordinate units is a lot larger than DA expects...ie I want to give a Coy the footprint of a Btn, given the historical situation.

I'm not sure if I can do this, so I'm interested in the G/10 Cav answer too.
 

Dr Zaius

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Well, I understand that G/10 means "Golf Troop, 10th Cavalry Squadron." I have no problem with that part. I'm simply wondering if 10CAV is the divisional cavalry element or if it is an OPCON unit from corps.
 

Dr Zaius

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Ivan Rapkinov said:
I'm working on a ADF East Timor "gone wrong scn" - and I'm having trouble given the scale of the engagement - at most on either side will be 1-2 Bdes, let alone divisions, plus the expected AO for the subordinate units is a lot larger than DA expects...ie I want to give a Coy the footprint of a Btn, given the historical situation.

I'm not sure if I can do this, so I'm interested in the G/10 Cav answer too.
Two brigades per side isn't a "tiny" scenario, although it certainly isn't huge. If the support elements are modelled as well this scenario should be decent in size. The only way to increase the size of the footprint is to increase the RCP. As I understand it, the footprint has more to do with the RCP than it does with the "size" (echelon) of the unit. Units tasked with a security mission also have a larger footprint, although thay may not be of much help to you.
 

Ivan Rapkinov

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hmmm, thought you were asking whther G/10 Cav was a subordinate unit to the BCT - I'm assuming if so the unit has a battalion-szied footprint for a troop-sized unit, making my job easier :D

edit: belay that last...
 
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Ivan Rapkinov

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Don Maddox said:
Two brigades per side isn't a "tiny" scenario, although it certainly isn't huge. If the support elements are modelled as well this scenario should be decent in size. The only way to increase the size of the footprint is to increase the RCP. As I understand it, the footprint has more to do with the RCP than it does with the "size" (echelon) of the unit. Units tasked with a security mission also have a larger footprint, although thay may not be of much help to you.
so, in my understanding, using CPs "ratio" method, I can make some larger footprinted units by increasing their RCP proportionally - or I suppose the other way would be to artificially enlarge the footprint using the map scale...

I think I have to work on more whetehr I want the are covered increased, or the relative area covered for unit RCP increased - Ie having BluFor units cover more area than RedFor, but maintaing the same RCP (Iassume this is not possible, but no harm in asking ;) )
 

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Ivan Rapkinov said:
so, in my understanding, using CPs "ratio" method, I can make some larger footprinted units by increasing their RCP proportionally - or I suppose the other way would be to artificially enlarge the footprint using the map scale...

I think I have to work on more whetehr I want the are covered increased, or the relative area covered for unit RCP increased - Ie having BluFor units cover more area than RedFor, but maintaing the same RCP (Iassume this is not possible, but no harm in asking ;) )
I don't think what you're asking is possible. You may be able to abstract this a bit, but I'm not sure if you are going to be happy with the results. The problem that you're trying to address (you're not happy with the default footprint) may be the lesser of two evils. If you go altering the scale of the map or making other changes, that will have serious effects on other portions of the game. You can't really alter the scale of the map without messing with movement rates as well.

As I said earlier, you can change the size of the footprint by changing the RCP, but this isn't a simple solution either. Doing this will also make the unit more powerful and more difficult to destroy. You could probably get away with this to an extent, but this is a tricky way to increase the footprint.

Let me ask this: why would these units have such a large footprint? Is it because they are spread out and stretched rather thin? If so, you might consider making the default unit the company instead of the battalion. In this manner, each "battalion" may spead its units over a wider area. Using this scale, of course, is starting to get pretty close to the limit where DA is no longer an appropriate wargame to use. In general, engagements at the company level are tactical engagements and terrain elevation and LOS become major issues. DA isn't really set up to cover battles at that scale very well.

I think DA can certainly do the battle you're talking about, but you may be forced to live with a somewhat smaller unit footprint than you would like. The cure can be worse than the disease if you start messing with other things. You may have to experiment with several different methods and see which "feels" the best for this particular battle.
 

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Don: trying to simulate the ETF theory mentioned in the AAJ for a Defence Dept. demonstration - this is being touted as one of the organisational chnages for the ADF by 2020.

the increased footprint was for the Recon-Strike group to simulate the fire support sensor-shooter integration, rather than attaching another unit.

By the same token, I wanted to reduce the size of the Close Combat elements footprint, while maintaining the same RCP.

not possible it seems :)
 

Dr Zaius

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Ivan Rapkinov said:
Don: trying to simulate the ETF theory mentioned in the AAJ for a Defence Dept. demonstration - this is being touted as one of the organisational chnages for the ADF by 2020.
What exactly is the ETF theory?
 
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