Combat Mission: Normandy - still no news and stranger than ever

[Mad Russian]

Then why did they?

The major announcement doesn't count.

I disagree, as I've noted before. Silence on their part looks bad and forces eager fans to begin playing the game in their minds, guaranteeing that whatever comes out, if it ever comes out, will not be what large numbers of potentially automatic customers expect or want.

Again, it's called setting the customers' expectations; and again, Steve doesn't believe it can be done.

-dale

After my experience with PCO, on this forum, I would disagree with that. We came and told you guys a few things. You weren't eager fans of PC but it's at least in the genre. As soon as we said ANYTHING, it started.

WELL, BUT WHAT ABOUT.... (insert any small imaginable detail you could possiby think of, or make up here)

After that experience, I'd never again say anything early either. Until they get to the point of being able to flood their forum with documentation. We all know they are reading this forum. They saw what happened with another game system.

After all that you think they would give anything to their "adoring fan base"? I wouldn't. I'd just wait. Which they seem to be doing.

What little imaginative damage could be done, from me fantasizing about where I wanted it to go vs the reality, would evaporate on contact with the real game. I wouldn't even consider that in the marketing aspect of the series.

It's results that will count not whether or not they gave a half dozen guys on a forum that's basically hostile to them anything to talk about. Where would that get them anywhere?

If it's such a big deal to the average gamer why aren't they here posting about it? We're always spouting about if CMSF is such a big hit where's the proof? Where are the gamer support sites for it? Ladders, forums, archives?

The reverse of that is also true. If the gaming community is so upset by how BFC does things then where are they? They should be in here burning up the forum. The truth is most consumers don't care what your track record is. They care about what you can do for them NOW.

Long running projects only make everybody involved suffer through them. It also takes resources to manage the information.

I say don't tell me. SHOW ME. When BFC has a game, and it's close to release then SHOW ME.
Otherwise I don't care about the nuts and bolts of their assembling it. Drive it in and let me kick the tires. I'm not interested in the assembly plant process.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The major announcement doesn't count.




After my experience with PCO, on this forum, I would disagree with that. We came and told you guys a few things. You weren't eager fans of PC but it's at least in the genre. As soon as we said ANYTHING, it started.

WELL, BUT WHAT ABOUT.... (insert any small imaginable detail you could possiby think of, or make up here)

After that experience, I'd never again say anything early either. Until they get to the point of being able to flood their forum with documentation. We all know they are reading this forum. They saw what happened with another game system.

After all that you think they would give anything to their "adoring fan base"? I wouldn't. I'd just wait. Which they seem to be doing.

What little imaginative damage could be done, from me fantasizing about where I wanted it to go vs the reality, would evaporate on contact with the real game. I wouldn't even consider that in the marketing aspect of the series.

It's results that will count not whether or not they gave a half dozen guys on a forum that's basically hostile to them anything to talk about. Where would that get them anywhere?

If it's such a big deal to the average gamer why aren't they here posting about it? We're always spouting about if CMSF is such a big hit where's the proof? Where are the gamer support sites for it? Ladders, forums, archives?

The reverse of that is also true. If the gaming community is so upset by how BFC does things then where are they? They should be in here burning up the forum. The truth is most consumers don't care what your track record is. They care about what you can do for them NOW.

Long running projects only make everybody involved suffer through them. It also takes resources to manage the information.

I say don't tell me. SHOW ME. When BFC has a game, and it's close to release then SHOW ME.
Otherwise I don't care about the nuts and bolts of their assembling it. Drive it in and let me kick the tires. I'm not interested in the assembly plant process.

Good Hunting.

MR

One important point to this discussion that you both touch on, sort of. Allowing the fanbase a glimpse into the "assembly line process" actually gives them the mistaken impression that they might have some sort of involvement in that process. Look at the "patch threads" for CM:AK and CM:BB for example. Then look at the disappointment when many of the suggestions were ignored - some by necessity, some by what I can only describe as pettiness on BFC's part. It would be the same as advertising features of a pre-beta build - the implicit message is "give us your thoughts and we'll incorporate them", when we know from past history that BFC really has little interest in doing that, if it runs counter to their own pre-established concepts. (I'm not interpreting that as a bad thing, either.)

So what dalem calls setting customer's expectations applies not only to the end product, but to their level of participation in getting there.

 

[Elvis]

Firstly, to some extent I agree. But also I find it somewhat refreshing being able to tell people when they are idiots and being told myself. And it's not just here, if you ever end up in a heated discussion with Linus Torvalds you are going to be called a lot worse then anything I've seen here, still makes some of those threads the best discussions I've seen on processor michroarchtectures and related subjects. And Geordie is around to make sure it doesn't get out of hand here.

And secondly, this coming from one member of the infamous beta brigade in defense of another member? That is hypocritical almost to the point of being surreal. Your fellow betas has weeded out anyone with a critical mind so that even bugs (like spooting and shooting through solid walls) are defended as features by the mindless mass that is left on the main boards, they did this mostly by being the arseholes you mention and then calling in CAS Steve on those occasions when they were still outgunned despite outnumbering the poor
fellow they have set their sights on. One of your fellow betas (Sgt Joch iirc) even admitted to baiting someone so that he could get Steve to ban the person. So maybe you should look at who you associate with before you call out others as being arseholes.

I don't treat people disrespectfully in real life or on the intertubes unless they are disrespectful to me. The type of behavior I have pointed out is the type that bullys exhibit. It boils my blood when I see kids do it (having a 6 and 9 year old kids exposes ya to that kind of stuff) but find it even more distasteful in adults.

Regarding the second thing I bolded....I don't find it hypocritical at all. Do you feel because you post here that you should be lumped into the same box as everyone else who posts here is from time to time? I have come to the defense of others who were on the receiving end of this kind of bulling who were not beta testers. Look at Thomms posts since he became able to post here. There aren't a lot so it shouldn't take long and tell what is so wrong with him. Your view of hypocrite is probably different than mine. Mine, as it applies to this conversation, is that condemning bad behavior in one person but not condemning the exact same behavior in another is hypocritical....regardless of their affiliation. And when this type of bullying behavior is pratically endorsed (certainly condoned) by the majority of this community and it ends up making a stand up guy, and now second programmer at BFC, like Phillip decide it isn't worth his time to be a member then the behavior isn't doing anyone any good.

Before posting I just saw this quote by you:

And if he is going to call out people he thinks are *******s it might be more fitting to start with those that he shares beta status with.

The fact is that I have. Sometimes right here on this forum.

 

[Elvis]

The major announcement doesn't count.




After my experience with PCO, on this forum, I would disagree with that. We came and told you guys a few things. You weren't eager fans of PC but it's at least in the genre. As soon as we said ANYTHING, it started.

WELL, BUT WHAT ABOUT.... (insert any small imaginable detail you could possiby think of, or make up here)

After that experience, I'd never again say anything early either. Until they get to the point of being able to flood their forum with documentation. We all know they are reading this forum. They saw what happened with another game system.

After all that you think they would give anything to their "adoring fan base"? I wouldn't. I'd just wait. Which they seem to be doing.

What little imaginative damage could be done, from me fantasizing about where I wanted it to go vs the reality, would evaporate on contact with the real game. I wouldn't even consider that in the marketing aspect of the series.

It's results that will count not whether or not they gave a half dozen guys on a forum that's basically hostile to them anything to talk about. Where would that get them anywhere?

If it's such a big deal to the average gamer why aren't they here posting about it? We're always spouting about if CMSF is such a big hit where's the proof? Where are the gamer support sites for it? Ladders, forums, archives?

The reverse of that is also true. If the gaming community is so upset by how BFC does things then where are they? They should be in here burning up the forum. The truth is most consumers don't care what your track record is. They care about what you can do for them NOW.

Long running projects only make everybody involved suffer through them. It also takes resources to manage the information.

I say don't tell me. SHOW ME. When BFC has a game, and it's close to release then SHOW ME.
Otherwise I don't care about the nuts and bolts of their assembling it. Drive it in and let me kick the tires. I'm not interested in the assembly plant process.

Good Hunting.

MR

One other aspect is what was in the game 6 months ago may not be in the game today. During CMSF I saw it more than I do now but there are things put in a game from time to time that don't necessarily work as they anticipated and are changed or, in a couple cases with CMSF that come to mind, are completely removed.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I don't treat people disrespectfully in real life or on the intertubes unless they are disrespectful to me.

That's a demonstrable lie, since in this case, I wasn't even addressing you when you decided to go off the rails. Perhaps what you really meant to say was "I don't treat people disrespectfully unless it suits me to do so."

 

[thewood]

Also, we all do get lumped in together, especially on the BFC forums by the beta brigade.

 

[dalem]

The major announcement doesn't count.

What about the multiple "it's going to be out by date X" statements? Do they count?

After my experience with PCO, on this forum, I would disagree with that. We came and told you guys a few things. You weren't eager fans of PC but it's at least in the genre. As soon as we said ANYTHING, it started.

WELL, BUT WHAT ABOUT.... (insert any small imaginable detail you could possiby think of, or make up here)

After that experience, I'd never again say anything early either. Until they get to the point of being able to flood their forum with documentation. We all know they are reading this forum. They saw what happened with another game system.

But that's what generates discussion, and if properly mediated and moderated, good discussion. IMO anyway.

After all that you think they would give anything to their "adoring fan base"? I wouldn't. I'd just wait. Which they seem to be doing.

What little imaginative damage could be done, from me fantasizing about where I wanted it to go vs the reality, would evaporate on contact with the real game. I wouldn't even consider that in the marketing aspect of the series.

It's results that will count not whether or not they gave a half dozen guys on a forum that's basically hostile to them anything to talk about. Where would that get them anywhere?

I'm not talking about us few here. I'm talking about their fan and customer base that they're currently not handing out even small bones to.

If it's such a big deal to the average gamer why aren't they here posting about it? We're always spouting about if CMSF is such a big hit where's the proof? Where are the gamer support sites for it? Ladders, forums, archives?

The reverse of that is also true. If the gaming community is so upset by how BFC does things then where are they? They should be in here burning up the forum. The truth is most consumers don't care what your track record is. They care about what you can do for them NOW.

Upset? No. Disinterested? Probably.

Long running projects only make everybody involved suffer through them. It also takes resources to manage the information.

I say don't tell me. SHOW ME. When BFC has a game, and it's close to release then SHOW ME.
Otherwise I don't care about the nuts and bolts of their assembling it. Drive it in and let me kick the tires. I'm not interested in the assembly plant process.

Good Hunting.

MR

I still disagree, mainly because of the nature of the gaming world and the choices made in the past.

Basically, BFC has chosen to expose themselves on their own forum that they created and they host. They have "allowed" access to the design team and marleting team in the past and in some ways continue that. Given that "open door" they invite questions about their games and their methodologies. And given their history, the expectation of information, especially given their own defined development timeline, is inevitable and proper.

I'm not arguing that it's the best or only model. I'm arguing that that's the model they've presented, and even if unintentional, encouraged.

-dale

 

[dalem]

Also, we all do get lumped in together, especially on the BFC forums by the beta brigade.

You mean we get lumped together by the very same people WE lump together? How DARE they?



I'm sorry thewood, I just couldn't resist.

And if we can't poke fun at ourselves, who can we poke fun at?

-dale

 

[Elvis]

That's a demonstrable lie, since in this case, I wasn't even addressing you when you decided to go off the rails. Perhaps what you really meant to say was "I don't treat people disrespectfully unless it suits me to do so."

That is not true at all. I have been discussing you, that is true. But I have not been insulting or rude in the process.

If you are referring to my homage to Barbara Billingsley that was clear signaled as a joke and intended to be humorous. (Where is Leto when you need him). If you are not familiar with her or the scene in Airplane I made reference to here it is. It is a classic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKfS3udCCx0

 

[Elvis]

You mean we get lumped together by the very same people WE lump together? How DARE they?

-dale

Exactly, Dale. And I think it is the people who see each lumpy pile for the individuals that are in each lump rather than assuming the entire lump that is rotten that are the ones with the best perspective.

 

[Elvis]

Basically, BFC has chosen to expose themselves on their own forum that they created and they host. They have "allowed" access to the design team and marleting team in the past and in some ways continue that. Given that "open door" they invite questions about their games and their methodologies. And given their history, the expectation of information, especially given their own defined development timeline, is inevitable and proper.

I'm not arguing that it's the best or only model. I'm arguing that that's the model they've presented, and even if unintentional, encouraged.

-dale

Have they really? I'll definitely to defer to you on this one as I didn't pay a ton of attention to what happened outside of the MBT before testing and not a ton after testing, but I seem to recall the real build up to release back and forth and constant updates ended after CMBO was released. I've heard mention on this forum how they thought Steve had changed around that time and wasn't as open to publiclly discussing what was going into the CMBB, CMAK and obviously CMSF.

But again, I am happy to defer to you if you feel my memory of it is wrong. You may have spent much more time "out there" than I did.

 

[Palantir]

Being silent about a game you’ve touted how great it will be then not saying much about it is not a good plan: even if you get potential customers saying "& what about XYZ...." (They can just ignore all that right?)

With not much to "see" about CM:N players of CMx1 will start looking elsewhere for gaming enjoyment- I certainly have. There's also the $$ issue, I only have so much money to spend on my gaming hobby and right now that’s slated for PC:O because of what I have seen about the game & their customer relations! {BFC's PR is always invited to kiss my a**}

They can keep as quiet as a mouse for all I care but if PC:O comes out first BFC can say goodbye to my money for a long time. (One day I might pick it up in the bargain bin...) You can only screw / ignore your core customers so long before they walk away and in today’s economy even all those new potential customers are getting fewer & fewer.

No matter what they think only word of mouth is going to sell any WW2 tactical game & that will be from the Grogs, not some “Farmville” players.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

That is not true at all. I have been discussing you, that is true. But I have not been insulting or rude in the process.

(Perhaps I should post in a form of communication that you better understand)

Hey moron. You really still have no idea of what he was saying in the post you are mocking him on, do you? Your vast brain power is failing you as you flounder at a chance to insult for the sake of insulting. Using your limited mindpower, your pea-brain is assuming what he was going to say instead of actually reading it. Go back and reread it, brainiac. He is actually agreeing with thewood in his assesment that the Eastern Front, as we are discussing it, would likely take 6-7 years to complete (without help) and implying that something like that is not a good idea. That is what he meant when he referred to your "reading comprehension" in the post you quoted above. Your almighty mental powers saw what they wanted to see in his post. If you had any kind of intellengence you would notice that not once did he say or imply that 16 modules or 6-7 years was a good thing. I know working with a double digit IQ may make it difficult for you to go back and find the quote you are mocking him with so I will provide it here:

Whatever.

 

[Elvis]

Whatever.

Selective quoting....The bits you didn't quote:

(Was that a better way to discuss this? Not my cup of tea most of the time but if it works for you let me know.)

I couldn't. But I understand why you would. But the chance to pay homage to the great and recently departed Barbara Billingsley and her famous scene from Airplane was too great. Stern replayed the scene and it was fresh in my mind.

 

[Quellist]

Regarding the second thing I bolded....I don't find it hypocritical at
all. Do you feel because you post here that you should be lumped into
the same box as everyone else who posts here is from time to time?

You can't be serious. It is like comparing going to the same school as a
bully and being part of his gang. You actively opted in to be part of that
infamous subgroup, I happen to frequent a board where anyone can post at
anytime.

I have come to the defense of others who were on the receiving end of
this kind of bulling who were not beta testers. Look at Thomms posts
since he became able to post here. There aren't a lot so it shouldn't
take long and tell what is so wrong with him.

I don't think there is anything wrong with him, he hadn't done his homework and/or maybe the language barrier threw a wrench in as well (me not being a native speaker being caught by the second more than a few times myself.) and got called genius for that.

I would also like to point you towards:
http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?95707-What-was-this-all-about-at-BFC&p=1318277&viewfull=1#post1318277

(And the whole thread if you think that I give thewood some sort of preferential treatment.)

But what happened to Thomm in this thread is miles and miles from
bullying.

Your view of hypocrite is probably different than mine. Mine, as it
applies to this conversation, is that condemning bad behavior in one
person but not condemning the exact same behavior in another is
hypocritical....regardless of their affiliation.

And it is still surreal coming from a beta as the BFC boards are likely the worst, actively
moderated, forums I have come across in this regard with some of the
betas as the company sanctioned bullies.

And when this type of bullying behavior is pratically endorsed
(certainly condoned) by the majority of this community and it ends up
making a stand up guy, and now second programmer at BFC, like Phillip
decide it isn't worth his time to be a member then the behavior isn't
doing anyone any good.

Wow, so now you are going to put words in Phillip's mouth? I agree that this community too often has it mind down in the gutter, as per the thread I linked to above, I do try in some
small ways try to change that, but it is far from as bad as you seem to want to make it seem.

The fact is that I have. Sometimes right here on this forum.

Let me guess, a mighty "that might have been uncalled for", hear me ROAR!- kind of thing?
But sure, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, show me a post on the
main boards where you call out a fellow beta for being a bullying arsehole

 

[Thomm]

In a quest to add some substance to the discussion I asked about the "Eastern Front in 16 Parts" plan on the CM:N Beta Forum. Steve confirmed that this is (basically) still the plan.

Here comes my interpretation: It is risk-free to plan it like that, because they can stop at any time when they see that the games do not sell. Maybe the plan is to throw other releases in between so that there is a gap of 1 or 2 years between Eastern Front base games, to refresh interest in the Eastern Front every now and then.

In any case, the initial plan was not altered so far.

Best regards,
Thomm

...he hadn't done his homework ... and got called genius for that.

I was called 'genius' for no other purpose than to insult me. I confirmed thewood's estimate making my own internal calculation as I outlined previously (=homework); I made my own guess for how the Eastern Front should be divided into parts. Therefore, I did not need any reference to the 16 parts. This is why I left it out in my quote of thewood's post. Please let me know if this explanation does not satisfy you.

 

[dalem]

In a quest to add some substance to the discussion I asked about the "Eastern Front in 16 Parts" plan on the CM:N Beta Forum. Steve confirmed that this is (basically) still the plan.

Here comes my interpretation: It is risk-free to plan it like that, because they can stop at any time when they see that the games do not sell. Maybe the plan is to throw other releases in between so that there is a gap of 1 or 2 years between Eastern Front base games, to refresh interest in the Eastern Front every now and then.

In any case, the initial plan was not altered so far.

Best regards,
Thomm

So you think the BFC we've seen is capable of realistic planning 5 years out?

-dale

 

[Quellist]

In a quest to add some substance to the discussion I asked about the "Eastern Front in 16 Parts" plan on the CM:N Beta Forum. Steve confirmed that this is (basically) still the plan.

Here comes my interpretation: It is risk-free to plan it like that, because they can stop at any time when they see that the games do not sell. Maybe the plan is to throw other releases in between so that there is a gap of 1 or 2 years between Eastern Front base games, to refresh interest in the Eastern Front every now and then.

In any case, the initial plan was not altered so far.

Best regards,
Thomm

Thank you.

I was called 'genius' for no other purpose than to insult me. I confirmed thewood's estimate making my own internal calculation as I outlined previously (=homework); I made my own guess for how the Eastern Front should be divided into parts. Therefore, I did not need any reference to the 16 parts. This is why I left it out in my quote of thewood's post. Please let me know if this explanation does not satisfy you.

Well, the purpose seemed to be to tell you that you was wrong in a somewhat insulting way.
The problem was that when you got challenged you did not respond by showing your calculation and telling us that you were making some other assumption than the 16 modules planned by BFC, instead you claimed the modules had nothing to do with it. (that's when I joined in.) I'm satisfied, I'm just trying to explain why I think you got the responses you got.

And as I went back a couple of pages to make sure I didn't miss anything, I saw that you were asking for book suggestions, let me suggest The Mythical Man-Month as a must if you are interested in project management.

 

[Thomm]

So you think the BFC we've seen is capable of realistic planning 5 years out?

I think that they are able to survive. That matters to me.

Best regards,
Thomm

 

[Thomm]

And as I went back a couple of pages to make sure I didn't miss anything, I saw that you were asking for book suggestions, let me suggest The Mythical Man-Month as a must if you are interested in project management.

Thank you for that. TMM is in my library for some years now.

I think I picked up all "classics" so far, but the latest additions (The Pragmatic Programmer, Psychology of Programming, ...) fail to impress me. Things start to get repetitious, which perhaps indicates that I get to a point of saturation (which is a good thing). It is just that those books do not make me want to jump up and start coding, something that Code Complete, or Writing Solid Code did for me.

Best regards,
Thomm