Combat Mission: Normandy - still no news and stranger than ever

[Michael Dorosh]

From Steve on August 20:

We're getting close to "polish only" mode for Normandy. A few minor things to finish up, or minor parts of major stuff, and lots of play testing to optimize graphics, find oddball bugs, tweak variables, finish graphics, etc. We have no ETA, but if we had to ship this thing right now (which we don't people would find the game quite playable and enjoyable. That's an important milestone for any game because the majority of development time is spent getting to that point.

Steve

So they're "close to" polish only mode - but not actually there yet.

When asked about when the forum might go up - or I suppose when, like a name might be announced - there was no response.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1202701&postcount=138

Yet despite the near imminence of them being close to a point where they might be in the close vicinity of being almost at the point of the last phase of development - nothing substantial to report. And no new screenshots.

I mean, you could play this thing today, according to Steve, but it's not complete enough for a beta tester to take a screen dump and run it up the flagpole on imagebucket.

Too weird.

Matrix has decided to post a fresh Panzer Command screenshot every day. I'm not suggesting they are competitors, just noting the approach. Even if you only had one usable tank in CM:N and one building backdrop, you could take a screenshot from different angles and fool people for a week of daily screenshots. Then change the skins, cover it in "mud" or different unit markings, and go for another week. Or just do close-ups of different hatch details, suspension, armament. How much creativity does it take?

I tend to believe that they have a workable product - Elvis reported here that they were getting through entire games. I do wonder what the hold up is - scenario design, game changing bugs (they're still chasing major ones in CM:SF, i.e. the walking through walls bug - perhaps Charles' time has shifted to that, or the bugs affect both games), last minute feature additions. Such secrecy.

 

[British Tommy]

I think the answer is PR. As others here pointed out many, many times in the past, Steve and Co and useless at it. What have we seen so far? think back a bit. One screen shot of a tank sat in grass. As MD has rightly drawn our attention to this, something is not quite right here.

 

[Geordie]

It is strange not to have any screenies by this very late stage in the game development. I imagine that perhaps the campaign may hold the release up for another 3-4 months.

In the meantime, I think I might be playing the improved Panzer Command. We've seen more of this in a few weeks than we have of CMN in 3 years. CMN is also 2 years late as well.

Personally, from a consumer of games point of view, I get tired of hearing the BF boys spout the same non-truths month after month. They are always saying that the games is ready but for something.........

Well, prove it to me for once, show me something.......

 

[Redwolf]

I'm sorry but if going through entire games just recently is worth mentioning at this point, we are far away from a polished game. There will be a lot of dirt coming up wrt victory points, AI, plans etc that you don't notice when just diddling individual turns. Which presumably are all near-setup turns.

The excuse given for lack of screenshots is missing textures, implying everything else is ready. Doesn't sound convincing to me.

 

[Palantir]

Didn't someone at BFC say that the Beta-testers were addicted to playing CM:N right now as is?
That would imply you could have ton's of screenshots to post.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

It may be as simple as something like they are still haggling over the best way to implement a Quick Battle system. Something that small could have become an enormous psychological stumbling block.

Or not. :laugh:

Who knows.

All this rank speculation is more for the beta testers to talk about behind closed doors while they wait for the coders to do their jobs.

 

[slm]

If they released CMSF Nato module next month, many people wouldn't care if they continued making final tweaks to CMN for several months after that. I don't understand why they'd release both products almost simultaneously. + the Afghanistan game.

 

[KG_Jag]

Michael won't suggest it, but I'll stake out the position with no mensed words that PC and CM x 2 WW2 are/will be direct competitors. Some of the hardcore who frequent boards like this will likely buy both games. However, many will not. That is especially true since PC is moving toward the true CM x 1 sequel concept (including a WEGO/turn based variable game system; at least a mini-theater in a box; listening to the customers; games that pug together; and non-intrusive/restrictive DRM) while BF still appears to be moving away from it (RT engine with WEGO as an add-on way to play; small slices of content; a module concept that require purchasing of the mother game in each line; a Mt. Olympus approach to game design and customer relations).

That competition won't be in full flower when/if CMN goes up against PCO. In part this is because many of us will be getting PCO for free; in part because one is West Front U.S. and other is East Front. However once PC4 is released it will be game on. This is largely because of the different gaming systems/design; content; the dependent, limited and base game/module dependent construction of CM x 2 WW2; DRM differences; and yes--customer relations.

I'll close this post by repeating what I posted on the 19th about this subject on Usenet:

"It's all really simple and smart by Matrix.

The PC two game series was seen by most CM x 1 gamers as mildly amusing games with some interesting "innovations", but ultimately inferior to CMBB. Even together they also contained far less content.

Since then BF has all but abandoned their CM x 1 mountain top, electing to go with a RT engine (with WEGO bolted on) and tiny slices of content. Meanwhile Matrix has picked up the PC rights and has a great deal of free/cheap labor, many of whom are luminaries in the CM x 1 community. PC-OF is the prototype for an improved engine and series of games.

What to do next.

Objective: grab the CM x 1 customer base. Method: get them to try the improved PC by offering free content for those who have paid for PC-K. Great PR and probably great penetration of the desired market. Even if you have to buy PC-K or PC-OF, it's still not a bad deal and should attract some more gamers.

After you have established your customer base, largely based on the already assemble CM x 1 players, release your new and improved PC engine and games for them to buy.

Maybe there are some parallels between this and the two free Grigsby DOS games Matrix started with."

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Michael won't suggest it, but I'll stake out the position with no mensed words that PC and CM x 2 WW2 are/will be direct competitors. Some of the hardcore who frequent boards like this will likely buy both games. However, many will not.

Time will tell as to how popular either product is overall, but in general I don't doubt that you are correct in your assessment that there will be fans of either game that refuse to even consider a purchase of both. Even if both are released to high critical acclaim. Best case scenario - for the genre - is that both do well critically and commercially - but only if it encourages other publishers to also produce games and keep pushing the bar higher.

If, however, a successful - or even lukewarm - set of releases comes out, stalls out, and other publishers see that and decide that they won't risk capital and reputations on a dead genre - we all lose.

I'm glad Matrix has decided to stick with it, particularly with the input of the fans.

 

[thewood]

To me its not about who purchases which. Its about what gets played and supported by the developer and the community that will decide the longevity of the series. Of course the game themselves have a lot to do with it. If PCO comes out and falls on deaf ears again, it will almost have to be all BFC all the time.

I don't think PCO will compete with CMN for purchases, but will compete for community support. CMBB is slowly going away from a technology standpoint and may not be a factor in a couple years.

 

[Patrocles]

I think the answer is PR. As others here pointed out many, many times in the past, Steve and Co and useless at it. What have we seen so far? think back a bit. One screen shot of a tank sat in grass. As MD has rightly drawn our attention to this, something is not quite right here.

good point.

I only recall seeing that pic of the tiger I tank in the grass and the sherman tank w/infantry next to a wood fence(?) as progress of CM Normandy. BFC should consolidate all images, replays, vids of CM:N in one place (if they have not done so alraedy...I'm too lazy to visit the BFC site).

 

[vulture]

good point.

I only recall seeing that pic of the tiger I tank in the grass and the sherman tank w/infantry next to a wood fence(?) as progress of CM Normandy. BFC should consolidate all images, replays, vids of CM:N in one place (if they have not done so alraedy...I'm too lazy to visit the BFC site).

Other screenshots from CM:N that have been released (aside from the tiger in the poppy field):

 

[Quellist]

Maybe the animations are holding them up?

Animations are very expensive, and difficult, to make. The primary reason is that there must be all sorts of transitions between them, with various weapons, for various LODs, etc. We have thousands of animations in CMx2 already, but obviously most of them are quite subtle or taken for granted.

What this means is if you guys gave us a list of 100 animations that we agreed with, we'd still maybe get to 2 or 3 of them each major release. Animations are the bane of game developers.

Steve

I'm sure glad they went 1-1, seems to be paying of in spades... :nuts:
Source:http://battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1202700&postcount=24

 

[thewood]

I agree. As soon as the announced the 1:1 format, I said they would regret that from a productivity standpoint.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I agree. As soon as the announced the 1:1 format, I said they would regret that from a productivity standpoint.

Mord and Dietrich were pouting the other day about my comments about CM:SF players.

And then Mord went and posted this thread:

What animations do you think we need added to the game as it stands now? Fixes or new additions.

It's like half their core audience now can't draw a straight line between developing essential elements of a decent strategy game (I won't even get into the difference between a game and a simulation), and for want of a better word, eye-candy. He actually used the word "need" with reference to animations.

Not that I disagree that someone running around looking like this is plain goofy:

Just as I really disliked the "walking the dog" mortars in CM:X1. But I played up at level 5 or so most of the time and really didn't spend a lot of time dwelling on it, especially since I wanted other features added in first.

 

[thewood]

The really sad part is that BFC expends all that effort on animations and they still look crappy. They are stuck half way between ArmA and CM1.

 

[Redwolf]

Shamelessly quoting myself:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1197499#post1197499

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmar Bijlsma

Those who want a finished campaign, fewer bugs in the game and functional Quick Battle system?

At this point I'd rather concentrate on the bugs, release, then have an open beta for the campaign and the quick battle system in an unsupported patch.

Apart from the fact that it's a lot of stuff to do before release I think there's not much of a chance to do all three of these things well, given how many programmers work on the thing.

 

[thewood]

You're right...shameless.

 

[Palantir]

As far as 1:1 realistic- the screenshot of the American's moving through the streets is bland looking and completely lacking in realism. Where's the trash of a war torn town & that lived-in look, barrels, crates, cars etc.?

Petty maybe, but if BFC is hyping CMx2 at 1:1 scale to get me down-close to play it I expect a realist look when I get there. But having every street, lane and house looking like the "Merry Maids" just marched through with a photocopier doesn't do it for me.

With CMx1 I never cared too much about the "Walking-the-dog" Mortar teams animation (goofy for sure) but I didn't play CMx1 for 1:1 up close but a fun tactical simulation of combat, which I played at lvls 3 - 5.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

You know, at the very least, they could have gone back and redone that screenshot with the upside mag pouches.

Or have they?

Is there a 2.0 of that one floating around somewhere? I don't mean by Photoshop either. I mean seriously, none of the bright eyed beta testers has found time to redo that shot?