CC and withdraw / rout Q's

[Oberst Hausser]

In the DFPh the AFV fired as 24 + 1 at the tank hex which was as melee previous turn.

All units broke...

Question 1: ( both units withdrew in the situation above)

As it is the CCPh the AFV gets a CC roll with a -2 DRM for withdrawing units. On this occasion the roll was greater than 7 so no effect.
I thought there was an -2 for being DM but can't presently find it.....

Question 2:
Does the German also have to withdraw or just the Russian? Can the German rout normally?

Lastly, both units were in GO prior to the DFPh that broke everyone, and the melee you see is a different melee fyi..

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I thought there was an -2 for being DM but can't presently find it.....

The DRM is -2 when attacking a broken unit, not a DM unit.

Question 2:
Does the German also have to withdraw or just the Russian? Can the German rout normally?

Since it was a Melee, "Broken Infantry in Melee may not rout during the RtPh, but must attempt to Withdraw from Melee..." (A11.16). Neither side can rout in the RtPh and both sides must attempt to Withdraw.

 

[Oberst Hausser]

Well one set of DM units is German...

" The DRM is -2 when attacking a broken unit, not a DM unit. " <-- This means ?????

 

[Larry]

From the A11.11 table

vs Withdrawing Infantry(A11.2)..(per Covering unit: +1).....-2
vs Broken Unit (A11.16)....................................................................-2

A DM unit is always broken but a broken unit is not always DM. A broken unit in melee is DM but the DM status is relevant to rally function, not death from running away. A broken unit in CC is subject to a -2 DRM. A broken unit in melee is subject to an additional -2 for withdrawing.

 

[Oberst Hausser]

That opens up a recent thread on that CC -the counter- is an intermediate event like a ball in flight before it lands .

This opens up the question what is the difference between a broken vs a DM unit in CC. Or melee.

In the melee case is be interested to know IF a DM unit can rout . I don't think so

Mainly concerned about units escaping by routing in a CC or melee condition

As you can see it gets pretty confusing ..

 

[Larry]

It isn't confusing. A10.62 describes the causes of DM. One of them is being attacked in CC and another is being ADJACENT to a KEU. A broken unit not under a DM cannot rout. A broken unit under a DM that is covered by a Melee counter cannot rout. Otherwise, a unit under a DM can and sometimes must rout.

Broken units with KEU in hex are ADJACENT and must rout if not under a melee counter. If under a melee counter, they cannot rout and must withdraw in the CCPh.

It isn't complicated if you swallow the elephant one bite at a time.

 

[Oberst Hausser]

A10.62 describes the causes of DM. One of them is being attacked in CC..since where in the CC table is DM caused ?

A DM unit under a tank ,excuse the pun, can just rout . Needless to say a broken unit under a tank will be thus DM.

 

[Jazz]

As you can see it gets pretty confusing ..

No, not really.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

A10.62 describes the causes of DM. One of them is being attacked in CC..since where in the CC table is DM caused ?

It's not in the table. As you said, it's in A10.62.

DM status does not affect the unit in the CCPh at all. DM status only allows a unit to rout in the RtPh, and add a DRM to its rally attempts in the RPh.

A DM unit under a tank ,excuse the pun, can just rout .

Whether it is under a tank or not, or anything else doesn't matter. What matters is just this: in the RtPh, if the broken unit is under a Melee counter, it cannot rout and must Withdraw in the CCPh.

 

[Stewart]

Question 1: ( both units withdrew in the situation above)
As it is the CCPh the AFV gets a CC roll with a -2 DRM for withdrawing units. On this occasion the roll was greater than 7 so no effect.
I thought there was an -2 for being DM but can't presently find it.....

Correct, because you didn't find it...it doesn't exist.
Too much bullshit about DM in CC...it's like banging one's head on the wall...they couldn't rally anyway...

Question 2:
Does the German also have to withdraw or just the Russian? Can the German rout normally?

Lastly, both units were in GO prior to the DFPh that broke everyone, and the melee you see is a different melee fyi..

The Attacker W/D first....as soon as he W/D there is no Melee and the other side broken unit simply remains.
Obviously can't rout as that's the Rout Phase, this is the CCPh there is no Routing...just withdrawing which isn't routing (displacing broken units isn't always routing). It's as simple as that.

 

[Oberst Hausser]

Hi,

This is a log of the CC situation with AFV and enemy MMC . The first is with AFV enters hex and DM enemy MMC in its MPh.

The second is when the AFV and MMC are in melee and the AFV subsequently DM the in hex units ( TPBF is a scary thing).

The main questions I have is what rout possibilities exist. Withdrawal being a purely melee situation.

Once its "sorted" it will be a lot more intuitive how to attack with AFV etc....

Also "in motion" AFV cannot hold anything in CC so that takes care of itself....


Thanks for any help

 

[Oberst Hausser]

From the A11.11 table

vs Withdrawing Infantry(A11.2)..(per Covering unit: +1).....-2
vs Broken Unit (A11.16)....................................................................-2

A DM unit is always broken but a broken unit is not always DM. A broken unit in melee is DM but the DM status is relevant to rally function, not death from running away. A broken unit in CC is subject to a -2 DRM. A broken unit in melee is subject to an additional -2 for withdrawing.

Very well said . Yes its quite subtle..

 

[Oberst Hausser]

Correct, because you didn't find it...it doesn't exist.
Too much bullshit about DM in CC...it's like banging one's head on the wall...they couldn't rally anyway...


The Attacker W/D first....as soon as he W/D there is no Melee and the other side broken unit simply remains.
Obviously can't rout as that's the Rout Phase, this is the CCPh there is no Routing...just withdrawing which isn't routing (displacing broken units isn't always routing). It's as simple as that.

So basically just 1 unit does the withdrawing and that is the end of it.. Non GO units do not force DM on adjacent broken units and may even rally. At which point the GO one would DM the other...

 

[klasmalmstrom]

So basically just 1 unit does the withdrawing and that is the end of it..

Broken units that start the CCPh in Melee must attempt to Withdraw. (Exceptions if Disrupted orGuarding prisoners.)

Declaration of Withdrawal is done in ASOP Step 8.15B and then the actual Withdrawal is done in Step 8.24B.

 

[Carln0130]

Hi,

This is a log of the CC situation with AFV and enemy MMC . The first is with AFV enters hex and DM enemy MMC in its MPh.

The second is when the AFV and MMC are in melee and the AFV subsequently DM the in hex units ( TPBF is a scary thing).

The main questions I have is what rout possibilities exist. Withdrawal being a purely melee situation.

Once its "sorted" it will be a lot more intuitive how to attack with AFV etc....

Also "in motion" AFV cannot hold anything in CC so that takes care of itself....


Thanks for any help

Ok. So, I looked at your example on VASL. if the AFV moved into T6 and broke the units in either the Movement Phase with Bounding First Fire or in the Advancing Fire Phase, I assume after passing their BOG check and not falling into the Cellar, then in the Rout Phase those units rout out. No Melee at this point exists.

R3, assuming once again that the tank, which entered during the Movement Phase (tanks can't Advance of course) and it didn't during its BOG check fall into the cellar, the Infantry could Voluntary Rout out of the hex if they wished.

Q3 and 4 are mostly correct. If the tank got into the hex, didn't kill itself by falling into the cellar during BOG or kill the infantry by rubbling the building during the BOG check and the CC was NE, then yes a Melee exists for the Infantry only. The tank gets a 24+ 2 om its next fire phase and if the Infantry breaks they have to Withdraw from Melee. In the CC phase they will be subject to a 5 CMG attacking them either at 1-1 vs one squad or 1-2 vs both with a -4 DRM. Minus 2 for being broken, minus two for withdrawing from Melee. You do not have to be broken to Withdraw from Melee, but broken units must Withdraw from Melee.

 

[Oberst Hausser]

Broken units that start the CCPh in Melee must attempt to Withdraw. (Exceptions if Disrupted orGuarding prisoners.)

Declaration of Withdrawal is done in ASOP Step 8.15B and then the actual Withdrawal is done in Step 8.24B.

So each unit moves 1 hex. The only time a unit may be adjacent to an enemy unit.

Do normal rout rules apply, for example routing towards a KEU. Which in most cases eliminates the unit.... Basically a death sentence .

 

[Doug Leslie]

So each unit moves 1 hex. The only time a unit may be adjacent to an enemy unit.

Do normal rout rules apply, for example routing towards a KEU. Which in most cases eliminates the unit.... Basically a death sentence .

It isn’t routing, so it can withdraw to any location that doesn’t contain an enemy unit.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

So each unit moves 1 hex.

One Location, technically.

 

[Oberst Hausser]

It isn’t routing, so it can withdraw to any location that doesn’t contain an enemy unit.

My point is INCLUDING towards a KEU , not to do with withdrawl as a concept ..towards a KEU .?

If so it would be unique

 

[ScottRomanowski]

My point is INCLUDING towards a KEU , not to do with withdrawl as a concept ..towards a KEU .?

If so it would be unique

Yes, it is unique in that broken units are changing Location and it's not the RtPh. A11.16 says "Broken units may withdraw into any Accessible Location unoccupied by enemy units, but once there normal rout rules apply in any subsequent RtPh." The prohibition of routing towards a KEU in A10.51 is just that, it applies to routing during the RtPh, and elimination for ending the RtPh ADJACENT to a unbroken, armed KEU only applies at the end of the RtPh.