C2.2401 Gun Duel Questions

BattleSchool

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C2.2401 GUN DUELS:
Vs a non-concealed, non-Aerial DEFENDER'S declared Defensive First Fire attack on it, a vehicle may attempt to Bounding First Fire (D3.3) its MA (/other-FP, including Passenger FP/SW) at that DEFENDER first, provided the vehicle need not change CA, is not conducting an OVR (D7.1), its total Gun Duel DRM (i.e., its total Firer-Based [5.] and Acquisition [6.5] TH DRM for its potential shot) is < that of the DEFENDER, and the DEFENDER'S attack is not Reaction Fire (D7.2). Neither the +1 DRM for a Gyrostabilizer nor the doubling of the lower dr for other ordnance in TH Case C4 (5.35) is included in the Gun Duel DRM calculation. The order of fire for non-ordnance/SW is determined as if it were ordnance [EXC: TH Case A can apply to non-ordnance/SW only if mounted-on/aboard a vehicle that is changing CA; all such non-turret-mounted fire is considered NT for purposes of TH Case C, and A.5 applies to any type of FG]. If the ATTACKER's and DEFENDER'S total Gun Duel DRM are equal, the lower Final TH (or non-ordnance IFT) DR fires first—and voids the opponent's return shot by eliminating, breaking, stunning or shocking it. If those two Final DR are equal, both shots are resolved simultaneously. Any CA change the DEFENDER requires in order to shoot (5.11) is made beforethe ATTACKER'S shot if the DEFENDER'S total Gun Duel DRM is ≤ the ATTACKER's; otherwise its CA changes (if still able to) after the ATTACKER's shot. After the initial Gun Duel has been fully resolved, and if otherwise able and allowed to, that DEFENDER may announce another attack vs that ATTACKER who in turn may declare another Gun Duel; this time the printed ROF of one firing weapon on each side may be included as a negative DRM in that side's Gun Duel DRM calculation. Only the ATTACKER may declare a Gun Duel [EXC: not if the DEFENDER has done so as per 5.33].
1. Apart from the +3/+4 DRM for being Thrown (and possibly, unqualified/captured use and CX), what would the (Firer-based) Gun Duel DRM for a DEFENDER Thrown DC comprise?
a. Would it include any (additional) "DC Position DRM" (C7.346)?
b. Would it include a +3 DRM if Thrown from a vehicle (I'm thinking yes)?

2. What would the total Gun Duel DRM be for a FT fired by a DEFENDER Passenger in a ht be if:
a. the ht is Stopped? (I'm thinking +3)
b. the ht is in Motion? (I'm thinking +5)

3. What would the total Gun Duel DRM be for a Stopped (unpinned CE) DEFENDER SPW 251/sMG ht that:
a. wanted to fire its AAMG at a Moving vehicle? (I'm thinking +3)
b. wanted to pivot its VCA one hexspine in order to engage a Moving vehicle with its VCA-only CMG? (I'm thinking +6)

4. A concealed HS with a PSK declares a DFF vs a Moving vehicle. May the Moving vehicle declare BFF and thus a Gun Duel? (I'm thinking no based on the C2.2401 EX, but would like to confirm.)

5. A Moving vehicle has entered a brush hex, expending 2 MP in the process. A Gun declared a DFF attack on the first MP expenditure. The vehicle responded by declaring a BFF attack and a Gun Duel. The Gun Duel was resolved with no effect on either party. Both parties retain ROF. According to C2.2401, the Gun could declare another DFF attack (presumably on the second MP expenditure), and the vehicle could respond by declaring another Gun Duel. However, according to C2.24, a "vehicular weapon using Bounding First Fire (D3.3) must expend at least one MP between its shots."
a. Is the vehicle allowed to declared a Gun Duel in this case, or must it expend another MP first? IOW, does the italicized text "if otherwise able and allowed to" apply only to the DEFENDER?
b. If the vehicle in the above example cannot declare a BFF attack and therefore a Gun Duel, under what circumstances would "back-to-back" Gun Duels occur?
c. Would the answer to the first question be any different if a different DEFENDER declared a DFF attack after the initial Gun Duel was resolved?

Any assistance in answering any of these questions in much appreciated.

TIA
 
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brunger

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Wow sees you have set up an end of term test?? Brilliant 🤔👍
 

BattleSchool

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Feel free to skip the first question. It's the most explosive of the lot.

And you thought you knew Gun Duels. I still don't. :(
 

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5. A Moving vehicle has entered a brush hex, expending 2 MP in the process. A Gun declared a DFF attack on the first MP expenditure. The vehicle responded by declaring a BFF attack and a Gun Duel. The Gun Duel was resolved with no effect on either party. Both parties retain ROF. According to C2.2401, the Gun could declare another DFF attack (presumably on the second MP expenditure), and the vehicle could respond by declaring another Gun Duel. However, according to C2.24, a "vehicular weapon using Bounding First Fire (D3.3) must expend at least one MP between its shots."
a. Is the vehicle allowed to declared a Gun Duel in this case, or must it expend another MP first? IOW, does the italicized text "if otherwise able and allowed to" apply only to the DEFENDER?
b. If the vehicle in the above example cannot declare a BFF attack and therefore a Gun Duel, under what circumstances would "back-to-back" Gun Duels occur?
c. Would the answer to the first question be any different if a different DEFENDER declared a DFF attack after the initial Gun Duel was resolved?

Q&A:

C2.2401
Ver. 27
After resolution of a Gun Duel, is the application of the ROF as a negative DRM to subsequent Gun Duel DRM calculations
restricted only to cases where the two original Gun Duel participants engage again? If yes, then there must be an additional
expenditure of MP for such a Gun Duel to take place, which would allow intervening DFF shots and possible Gun Duels, do such
intervening Gun Duels impact on the later application of the ROF as DRM should the two original Gun Duel participants engage
in another Gun Duel?
A. Yes. No.
The rule says:

C2.2401
A DEFENDER declares a DFF attack against a vehicle attempting BFF, which vehicle responds by declaring a Gun Duel.
However, the vehicle is not eligible to fire first in a Gun Duel because its TH DRMs (computed in accordance with C2.2401) are
greater than those of the DEFENDER. If the vehicle survives the DEFENDER’s attack, can another of the DEFENDER’s units
declare a DFF attack and fire first upon the vehicle, subject to the vehicle declaring, if eligible, a Gun Duel against that unit?
A. No, ATTACKER’s declared BFF attack is resolved first.
If the declaration of a Gun Duel suspends all DFF opportunities by other units even if the attacking vehicle is not eligible to fire
first, would the same be true if the reason the vehicle did not qualify to fire first is one of the other conditions contained in the first
sentence of C2.2401: that is, the vehicle would have to change CA, the DEFENDER’s attack is Reaction Fire, or the vehicle is
conducting an OVR?
A. It is not the declaration of a Gun Duel that suspends DFF opportunities, it is the declaration of BFF. If further MP need to be
expended (e.g., change CA or OVR) before BFF can occur, other defenders may conduct DFF on those MP.
The relevant Q&A:

C2.2401
Ver. 27
After resolution of a Gun Duel, is the application of the ROF as a negative DRM to subsequent Gun Duel DRM calculations
restricted only to cases where the two original Gun Duel participants engage again? If yes, then there must be an additional
expenditure of MP for such a Gun Duel to take place, which would allow intervening DFF shots and possible Gun Duels, do such
intervening Gun Duels impact on the later application of the ROF as DRM should the two original Gun Duel participants engage
in another Gun Duel?
A. Yes. No.
The context of this rule and Q&A appears to involve a 2 MP expenditure to get into the location (if able and allowed). Thus it appears by inference that the attacker gets to declare a gun duel against both shots. My best GWAG.
 

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4. A concealed HS with a PSK declares a DFF vs a Moving vehicle. May the Moving vehicle declare BFF and thus a Gun Duel? (I'm thinking no based on the C2.2401 EX, but would like to confirm.)

Agree. "Vs a non-concealed, non-Aerial DEFENDER’s
declared Defensive First Fire"
 

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3. What would the total Gun Duel DRM be for a Stopped (unpinned CE) SPW 251/sMG ht that:
a. wanted to fire its AAMG at a Moving vehicle? (I'm thinking +3)
b. wanted to pivot its VCA one hexspine in order to engage a Moving vehicle with its VCA-only CMG? (I'm thinking +6)

The applicable case A to an AAMG is 0.
The applicable case A to use a CMG after pivoting VCA one hexspine is +3.
 

Larry

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2. What would the total Gun Duel DRM be for a FT fired by a Passenger in a ht be if:
a. the ht is Stopped? (I'm thinking +3)
b. the ht is in Motion? (I'm thinking +5)

The order of fire for non-ordnance/SW is determined
as if it were ordnance [EXC: TH Case A can apply to non-ordnance/SW
only if mounted-on/aboard a vehicle that is changing CA; all such nonturret-
mounted fire is considered NT for purposes of TH Case C, and A.5
applies to any type of FG].
Is this the defender or the moving vehicle? Did the vehicle change its CA?
 

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1. Apart from the +3/+4 DRM for being Thrown (and possibly, unqualified/captured use and CX), what would the (Firer-based) Gun Duel DRM for a Thrown DC comprise?
a. Would it include any (additional) "DC Position DRM" (C7.346)?
b. Would it include a +3 DRM if Thrown from a vehicle (I'm thinking yes)?


DRM:
+2 Motion/Non-Stopped AFV or concealed Target == not firer based
+2 Thrown DC (or +3 if Thrown from Non-Stopped/Motion Conveyance) == firer based
+1 CX == firer based
+1 Placed/Thrown through hull front Target Facing == not firer based
+1 AFV target is CE == not firer based
+1 Thrown in AFPh (not as Opportunity Fire) == firer based
-1 Placed/Thrown through hull rear Target Facing == not firer based
-2 Immobile or OT AFV target (each) == not firer based
-2 Vehicle target is in Bypass in same hex == not firer based
-1/-2 Elevation Advantage Case B (C7.22) as applicable == firer based
 

BattleSchool

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2. What would the total Gun Duel DRM be for a FT fired by a Passenger in a ht be if:
a. the ht is Stopped? (I'm thinking +3)
b. the ht is in Motion? (I'm thinking +5)

Is this the defender or the moving vehicle? Did the vehicle change its CA?
Sorry about that, and thanks for pointing it out. I've added "DEFENDER" to the questions, although in this case, 2b. would have to be a DEFENDER, as a Moving vehicle is never in Motion.

But as someone else pointed out, question 2 is flawed. As per D6.1, a SW FT may not be fired by a Passenger.

Thanks for all your replies. I will respond to the remainder shortly.
 
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BattleSchool

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4. A concealed HS with a PSK declares a DFF vs a Moving vehicle. May the Moving vehicle declare BFF and thus a Gun Duel? (I'm thinking no based on the C2.2401 EX, but would like to confirm.)

Agree. "Vs a non-concealed, non-Aerial DEFENDER’s
declared Defensive First Fire"
Agreed, but I think the EX nails it by saying "concealed when it declared its attack" [emphasis added]. Unlike a concealed Gun, which only loses concealment after it fires, and then only if it rolls a 5 or 6 on the colored die roll, other units normally lose concealment the moment they declare an attack.
 
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BattleSchool

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3. What would the total Gun Duel DRM be for a Stopped (unpinned CE) SPW 251/sMG ht that:
a. wanted to fire its AAMG at a Moving vehicle? (I'm thinking +3)
b. wanted to pivot its VCA one hexspine in order to engage a Moving vehicle with its VCA-only CMG? (I'm thinking +6)

The applicable case A to an AAMG is 0.
The applicable case A to use a CMG after pivoting VCA one hexspine is +3.
My apologies for the question not being as clear as it might have been. I was referring to a DEFENDER's Gun Duel DRM. (An ATTACKER may not declare a Gun Duel if it needs to change TCA/VCA in order to engage the target that declared DFF against it.)

The question was trying to get a handle on what is meant in C2.2401 by "The order of fire for non-ordnance/SW is determined as if it were ordnance [EXC: TH Case A can apply to non-ordnance/SW only if mounted-on/aboard a vehicle that is changing CA; all such non-turret-mounted fire is considered NT for purposes of TH Case C, and A.5 applies to any type of FG]."

3a. My thinking was that Case A would not apply to the AAMG Gun Duel DRM, but that TH Case C would. However, I'm unsure as to whether this means +3 for NT, or +3 for NT and +2 for Case B, as Case C normally applies to a Bounding Firer. I don't think that the rule is calling for Case B, because the DEFENDER is not a Bounding Firer.

If I'm right, is the Gun Duel DRM for the AAMG +3, or something else?

3b. The CMG is a little more complicated. The vehicle note for this ht states that despite being restricted to fire through the vehicle's CA only, the CMG is otherwise "treated as a normal CMG." I take this to mean that in addition to not being able to make CC attacks, the CMG has a normal range of 12. Given that the CMG is the MA, and that the MA is NT, as per D1.33, I don't see why the CMG wouldn't be treated as "non-turret-mounted fire" when calculating Gun Duel DRM.

If so, would the total Gun Duel DRM not be +6 (+3 Case A, and +3 NT Case C)?
 

BattleSchool

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1. Apart from the +2/+3 DRM for being Thrown (and possibly, unqualified/captured use and CX), what would the (Firer-based) Gun Duel DRM for a Thrown DC comprise?
a. Would it include any (additional) "DC Position DRM" (C7.346)?
b. Would it include a +3 DRM if Thrown from a vehicle (I'm thinking yes)?


DRM:
+2 Motion/Non-Stopped AFV or concealed Target == not firer based
+2 Thrown DC (or +3 if Thrown from Non-Stopped/Motion Conveyance) == firer based
+1 CX == firer based

+1 Placed/Thrown through hull front Target Facing == not firer based
+1 AFV target is CE == not firer based
+1 Thrown in AFPh (not as Opportunity Fire) == firer based
-1 Placed/Thrown through hull rear Target Facing == not firer based
-2 Immobile or OT AFV target (each) == not firer based
-2 Vehicle target is in Bypass in same hex == not firer based
-1/-2 Elevation Advantage Case B (C7.22) as applicable == firer based
This one is tricky. (Again apologies for not making it clear that I was talking about DEFENDER Gun Duel DRM.)

1a. The first part of the question deals solely with an Infantry unit targeting a Moving vehicle with a DC.

A23.6 THROWN DC:
A DC may be Thrown (thereby constituting use of a SW; 7.35) into an ADJACENT Location in its LOS—including down to the next lower level of the thrower's hex via a stairwell—or down (e.g., from an upper-level building Location or across a cliff hexside) to the ground-level, in-LOS Location of an adjacent hex, or to the ground level of a non-Interior Building hex from a higher level Location of that hex (even though there may be intervening building levels) by any unpinned, Good Order (or berserk) Personnel capable of SW use during any friendly fire phase (or Defensive First Fire) instead of Placed during the owner's MPh. However, a Thrown DC is less accurate than a Placed DC and may not be Thrown to a full-level higher elevation. A Thrown DC must add an additional +2 DRM (+3 if Thrown from a non-stopped/Motion vehicle or by Cavalry) to the attack resolution [EXC: vs an AFV the +2/+3 DRM applies to the DC Position DR instead; C7.346]
Considering that the +2/+3 DRM in A23.6 refer to "DC Position DR," my initial thought was that these specific DRM might be deemed "Firer Based." However, C2.2401 states that the total Gun Duel DRM is the sum of a unit's total "Firer-Based [5.] and Acquisition [6.5] TH DRM. The sentence (below) at the end of C5. (it's on page C12), states that there are a bunch of other fired-based TH DRM elsewhere in the rules. Those listed below are all found on the C5 Table. DC Position DR are not.

[There are numerous other firer-based To Hit Determination DRM listed elsewhere in the rules; CX (A4.51), Overstack (A5.12), Leadership (A7.531; D3.44), Encircled (A7.7), Spotted Fire (9.3), Bypass TCA change to/through (or coinciding with) side Target Facing (D2.321), and Stun (D5.34).]
Still, I'm inclined to agree with you that the +2+/+3 DRM for a Thrown DC ought to apply to the Gun Duel DRM (along with CX, if applicable). If so, what to make of Case B (C7.22)? Like you, I think it would qualify as a Firer-Based DRM given that the DRM modifies the Position DR, making it easier to hit a target from a higher elevation. However, neither of these DRM are explicitly (firer-based) TH DRM, although that's what they appear to be.

EDIT On further reflection, maybe the +2/+3 DRM for a Thrown DC should not apply to Gun Duel DRM. The VTT TH DR effectively embodies a "position DR" in so much as the DR determines where the hit strikes a vehicle. IOW, there is no TH DRM for attempting to hit the turret rather than the hull. It's factored into the TH DR instead. (Admittedly, there is a +5 DRM for a DI shot, but this DRM is in addition to the requirement to score a hull hit.) So maybe the only possible Gun Duel DRM for a Thrown DC would be +1 for CX.

C7.22 CASE B; AERIAL / DC / MOL ELEVATION ADVANTAGE vs AFV:
...Case B also applies to the Position DR (but not the To Kill DR) of a DC vs an AFV if the DC is Placed/Thrown from at least a one level elevation advantage.
1b. As I noted when discussing question 3, I believe the DEFENDER would have to pay +3 for Case C, because the attack would be treated as non-ordnance, non-turret-mounted fire. (Unlike LATW, SCW and MG, DC do not use a TH table when Thrown, and therefore ought to be treated as non-ordnance for the purposes of C2.2401, regardless of what we might think about Firer-based DRM.) This DRM would be in addition to possibly paying +2/+3 for a DC Thrown from a Stopped or Motion vehicle respectively.
 
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BattleSchool

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5. A Moving vehicle has entered a brush hex, expending 2 MP in the process. A Gun declared a DFF attack on the first MP expenditure. The vehicle responded by declaring a BFF attack and a Gun Duel. The Gun Duel was resolved with no effect on either party. Both parties retain ROF. According to C2.2401, the Gun could declare another DFF attack (presumably on the second MP expenditure), and the vehicle could respond by declaring another Gun Duel. However, according to C2.24, a "vehicular weapon using Bounding First Fire (D3.3) must expend at least one MP between its shots."
a. Is the vehicle allowed to declared a Gun Duel in this case, or must it expend another MP first? IOW, does the italicized text "if otherwise able and allowed to" apply only to the DEFENDER?
b. If the vehicle in the above example cannot declare a BFF attack and therefore a Gun Duel, under what circumstances would "back-to-back" Gun Duels occur?
c. Would the answer to the first question be any different if a different DEFENDER declared a DFF attack after the initial Gun Duel was resolved?

The context of this rule and Q&A appears to involve a 2 MP expenditure to get into the location (if able and allowed). Thus it appears by inference that the attacker gets to declare a gun duel against both shots. My best GWAG.
Thanks for taking a stab at this. I looked at the Q&A too.

It doesn't explicitly address the question regarding the ability of the ATTACKER to declare a second BFF attack, and thus a Gun Duel (on the DEFENDER's second DFF attack). The question does state that "there must be an additional must be an additional expenditure of MP for such a Gun Duel to take place." And the reply doesn't contradict this. The question is really about when ROF may apply as a negative DRM, not whether the Moving vehicle is required to expend a MP between Gun Duels, as it normally must for any other form of BFF attack.

Q. After resolution of a Gun Duel, is the application of the ROF as a negative DRM to subsequent Gun Duel DRM calculations restricted only to cases where the two original Gun Duel participants engage again? If yes, then there must be an additional expenditure of MP for such a Gun Duel to take place, which would allow intervening DFF shots and possible Gun Duels, do such intervening Gun Duels impact on the later application of the ROF as DRM should the two original Gun Duel participants engage in another Gun Duel?

A. Yes. No.
IMO, it's the word “between” in C2.24 that’s the crucial bit. IMO, the Q&A below supports the interpretation that a MP must be expended between BFF attacks, and therefore between Gun Duels.

C2.24 & C5.3
Q. Assume an AFV spends 3 MP moving in to a hex and elects to Bounding First Fire (BFF) from that hex. Does the AFV get 1, 2, or 3 shots with it’s ordnance MA (assuming it retains ROF) based on the 3 MP required to enter the hex?

A. 1; C2.24 & C5.3.

Q. If an AFV spent 1 MP in entering a hex and elects to BFF, could it “fire” more than once based on the 1 MP expenditure by using different weapons on the AFV (i.e., MA, CMG, BMG, etc.)?

A. Yes.
Is there something in C2.2401 that overrides C2.24?
 

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I rephrased and expanded the questions before submitting them to Perry on 30 September. Will post replies once I receive them.

One thing that I didn't ask specifically occurred to me afterwards regarding a Thrown DC. Given that the DRM for being CX applies on the DC Position DR, would it actually apply to the total Gun Duel DRM if everything else on the DC Position DR is NA for Gun Duel purposes? IOW, despite normally applying as a Firer-based DRM for other non-ordnance attacks, would the CX DRM apply to a Thrown DC attack in order to determine who attacks first?
 
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