C 3.33, C 3.41, A 8.1 Mortar DFF vs out of LOS unit

[CHERDE]

C 3.33, C 3.41, A 8.1 Mortar DFF vs out of LOS unit

May a 60mm mortar fire as DFF at a hex, in which an enemy unit bypasses the woods out of LOS of the mortar - of course to hit and harm the unit ?

There is no other unit in the targeted wood hex . The mortar has only LOS to the center dot of the wood hex but not to the bypassing unit.

 

[Brian W]

C 3.33, C 3.41, A 8.1 Mortar DFF vs out of LOS unit

May a 60mm mortar fire as DFF at a hex, in which an enemy unit bypasses the woods out of LOS of the mortar - of course to hit and harm the unit ?

Of course not.

 

[CHERDE]

but a point could be made to affect the out of LOS unit because of C 3.33 - a mortar can hit out of LOS units and because of C 3.41 - ATT may be used against devoid hexes.

 

[Mike te Younger]

You need LOS to fire at an enemy unit in the enemy's Movement Phase

The rules you cited apply during all other Fire Phases

If the enemy unit bypassing the woods out of your LOS was a vehicle, then you could fire at the other wise empty hex during your Defensive Fire and Prep Fire Phases. Your TH is +2 (Target concealed or not know to the firer)

You cannot shoot at a unit moving out of LOS during your opponent's movment phase

 

[alanp]

CHERDE, you need to take literally the part of A8.1, lines 8-9 which says: "Anytime a unit/stack expends MF/MP in the LOS of one of his units. . . " if bypass movement isn't in the Defending unit's LOS, no Def. First Fire is allowed.

 

[Fred Ingram]

Even out of the movement phase C.33 need to be read & understood.

C3.33 Can units out of LOS be hit via Area Target Type?
A. Only if firing a mortar and it first hits that in-LOS unit that is hardest-to-hit. [Compil5]

 

[CHERDE]

CHERDE, you need to take literally the part of A8.1, lines 8-9 which says: "Anytime a unit/stack expends MF/MP in the LOS of one of his units. . . " if bypass movement isn't in the Defending unit's LOS, no Def. First Fire is allowed.

this convinces me 100%:smoke:


regarding Fred Ingrams hint to C 3.33, line 6 to 9 I now conclude that I need a LOS to an (possibly concealed enemy) unit A to harm an out of LOS unit B with mortar fire during PFPh / DFPh.

If only the out of LOS unit B would be there the mortar could fire at the hex to gain Acq - but the unit could not be hit.

Did I get it right?

 

[alanp]

C3.33: "a mortar also hits all target-hex units that are out of its firer's (Spotter's)LOS if that shot hit the non-hidden enemy target that currently was the hardest for it to hit(ie.that received the highest net TH DRM. . ."

When a mortar fires at a hex, it hits out-of-LOS targets if the TH DR is good enough to hit the haredest-to-hit in-LOS target.

Say, there's a concealed unit, an unconcealed unit and a vehicle in bypass--out of LOS of firer/spotter--in a hex being fired on by a mortar: if the mortar hits the concealed unit, it also hits the vehicle (even though the vehicle is out of LOS). This only holds for PFPh/DFPh, not D1F.

Three different ways of saying the same thing.

edit: sorry, CHERDE, missed the point of your last question. since there is no in-LOS target to hit, the out-of-LOS unit would be missed,too, I believe.

 

[Ole Boe]

CHERDE, you need to take literally the part of A8.1, lines 8-9 which says: "Anytime a unit/stack expends MF/MP in the LOS of one of his units. . . " if bypass movement isn't in the Defending unit's LOS, no Def. First Fire is allowed.

I think its time to spread some disagreement now that you all agree

Specifically, I disagree with Alan's quoted statement here. If that was correct, then all declared DFF that turned out to have blocked LOS, would be illegal and not performed for any reason (e.g. no Sniper, malfunction or First Fire counter).

So those lines from A8.1 should not be taken literally, but rather be taken as a general principle.

The rules that should be taken literally in this regard however, is A6.11, C3.33 and C3.4.

A6.11 and C3.4 establishes that only units in LOS can be affected, but C3.33 has a very interesting exception for mortars, already quoted by Alan in this thread.
It only applies if there are other in-LOS units that are hit by the same shot though, and that is normally not possible during the enemy MPh, so the answer to the original question is still "No".

However, I will argue that C3.33 applies during DFF too, so in certain special situations, it may be possible to hit a unit that is moving outside your LOS. Do anyone know what I'm thinking about? :whist:

 

[Bjoernar]

Always nice when someone doesn't agree

However, I will argue that C3.33 applies during DFF too, so in certain special situations, it may be possible to hit a unit that is moving outside your LOS. Do anyone know what I'm thinking about? :whist:

One case:
A sort of impuls movement with infantry and AFVs. If a Human wave is combined with Armored Assault this may happen. When a squad enters a wood hex an Armored Assault AFV may then be in bypass out of LOS from the firing MTR.


Bjørnar

 

[Ole Boe]

One case:
A sort of impuls movement with infantry and AFVs. If a Human wave is combined with Armored Assault this may happen. When a squad enters a wood hex an Armored Assault AFV may then be in bypass out of LOS from the firing MTR.

Correct :hurray:, or rather any case of Impulse Movement, not necessarily using Armored Assault - i.e. HW/Banzai, Platoon Movement.

I think even normal Armored Assault will allow for such a situation if the AFV bypasses the obstacle while the infantry enters it - but I'm not sure that this is allowed during AA. :hmmm:

During those situations, one unit may bypass the obstacle while another enters it (or they may bypass on different sides) - resulting in two moving units in a hex, where only one is in LOS, but where the other may be hit as per C3.33.

 

[alanp]

Thanks, Ole; was expecting some sort of comment as this question involves so many factors and rules sections, I figured I would have missed something.

Has Impulse Movement been on your mind recently for any particular reason? :whist:

This got me thinking,too: say there is a HIP unit in the hex--in a building or woods, say--with another unit in bypass out of LOS of a Defensive Final Firer. I take it that it's possible to hit the HIPster with a mortar(of course.) I also take it that the HIPster is considered to be in the firer's LOS for purposes of hitting the out-of-LOS bypassing unit.

Basically, in general, HIPsters are in LOS if their Location is in LOS, right? "HIP"="concealed" except for a couple of things, and concealed units are in LOS, athough not "Known." So, why does the existence of other units allow one to hit a unit out of LOS? (Besides the fact that that's what the rules say. . .) Or am I being too "realistic"?

 

[Ole Boe]

Thanks, Ole; was expecting some sort of comment as this question involves so many factors and rules sections, I figured I would have missed something.

You didn't really miss something. Unfrtunately, A7 and A8 isn't written in a very precise language. There have been some heated rule debates on the ASLML lately as well as here, due too poor wording of A7/A8.

Has Impulse Movement been on your mind recently for any particular reason? :whist:

Not too recently. The new Impulse Movement rules were handed over to MMP some months ago, so its MMP who thinker with them now

This got me thinking,too: say there is a HIP unit in the hex--in a building or woods, say--with another unit in bypass out of LOS of a Defensive Final Firer. I take it that it's possible to hit the HIPster with a mortar(of course.)

Not during DFF, since DFF can only hit moving units, but the HIP unit can of course be hit during PFPh, DFPh and AFPh (with the case K +2 DRM of course).

I also take it that the HIPster is considered to be in the firer's LOS for purposes of hitting the out-of-LOS bypassing unit.

The HIPster can be hit (still assuming that its not the MPh), but that doesn't help hitting the out-of-LOS unit, since C3.33 requires you to hit "the non-hidden enemy target that currently was the hardest for it to hit". You can of course reval him with your first shot, and thereby hit the out-of-LOS unit with your second shot (assuming ROF), since there now is a non-hidden unit in LOS.

Basically, in general, HIPsters are in LOS if their Location is in LOS, right?

Right, with the normal exceptions of course (ex: beneath an Entrenchment behind Wall, IN a Gully, behind Bocage w/o WA etc.).

"HIP"="concealed" except for a couple of things, and concealed units are in LOS, athough not "Known." So, why does the existence of other units allow one to hit a unit out of LOS? (Besides the fact that that's what the rules say. . .) Or am I being too "realistic"?

The rule may seem unrealistic, but is actually there for realism reasons, on a higher level. You cannot hit it, because in real life, your mortar team would have no reason to fire at that Location when there is no enemy to see.

This is one of three (that I know of offhand) rules to limit the player omniscience syndrome.

 

[alanp]

Thanks again, Ole.

Of course I over-looked the "non hidden" part of C3.33 this time.

Though rare, you *could* affect an out-of-LOS unit, with non-D1F, with a lucky rubbling of the building they're bypassing.

Also, I like your new word: "thinker; v., from the Norwegian thinker 'to re-write'; To think long and hard about something, as in a rule to a complicated game, and change it after much more hard thought. see 'tinker'."

 

[CHERDE]

Thanks to Ole and Impulse Movement I can post my follow on questions:

a) Does FFMO / FFNAM apply as TH DRM vs. the out of LOS unit - ? The unit is in a wood hex but on a Open Ground vertex!

b) In case a hit is scored vs. the out of LOS unit: Would Airburst affect the IFT DR ? - The unit is in a wood hex but on a Open Ground vertex!

c) Would Airburst affect the RFP ? I think so - a 4 RFP would be placed.