Board Organization

Stewart

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Can we have the boards organized better?
Starter kit boards should preface with "SK (letter)" Having the "Starter Kit" after the Letter is almost pointless.
HASL and TPP maps are a mess.
Unless you know the abbreviation (a lot are not obvious), it's a pain.

I don't know the functionality of the drop down, but maybe Tabs on the menu?
There has to be a better way.


There are two board u/U btw.
I didn't check the others but happen to see these next to each other.

Just initial thoughts.
 

Robin Reeve

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The list of boards is quite long indeed, and having them all bunched together, after their alphabetical order, makes the selection more and more a pain.
A subdivision by genre menus could be interesting.
 

ScottRomanowski

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And not having VASSAL/VASL slow things down by checking to see if a board needs to be updated as you step down through the list of boards would be fantastic! (At least this used to be the way it worked; I haven't checked recently.)
 

Turuk

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Yes like categories like- Official, HoB, CH, LFT, BGD, BFP Etc would be better.
I think this model of breaking them out by publisher would be ideal, if possible. It saves scrolling through an ever-growing list (though you can type a letter to have it jump to that spot).
 

zgrose

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I think the OP was referring to the abbreviation scheme as implemented in the VASL board pick list.
Which boards don't match the text on the board? Is probably the exception than the rule.

If a scenario card says Fa, I want to find Fa, not St Mere Eglise North Map, or some such.
 

DougRim

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And not having VASSAL/VASL slow things down by checking to see if a board needs to be updated as you step down through the list of boards would be fantastic! (At least this used to be the way it worked; I haven't checked recently.)
How, then, would players know that a new board or a new update had been issued and how/where would they get it?

What about new players, where would they get their boards?

And overlays?
 

ScottRomanowski

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How, then, would players know that a new board or a new update had been issued and how/where would they get it?

What about new players, where would they get their boards?

And overlays?
People would get them when they select that board/overlay, or load a scenario with that board/overlay. Check then, not as you step through the "Select board" list.

Here's an example of the delay I'm bothered by. I start a new game, select boards, and type "10" as the board number. The highlight jumps to 10a, and since it's faster for me to type than move my hand to the mouse I press the down arrow twice and press Enter to get to "10". (Also, "10a" is at the bottom of the scroll window, so if I were to use the mouse, I'd first have to scroll down then click on 10.) VASL takes about half a second each to check and update boards 10a and 10b. Why is VASL checking for boards I have not selected?

- Board 10a is out of date. Updating...
  • Update succeeded
  • Board 10b is out of date. Updating...
  • Update succeeded
  • Board 10 is out of date. Updating...
  • Update succeeded
 

zgrose

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>since it's faster for me to type than move my hand to the mouse
Currently, it's faster for you to move your hand to your mouse.


>How, then, would players know that a new board or a new update had been issued and how/where would they get it?
I suspect they would like VASL to wait 500ms or so before making the network check. It's a fairly common practice to wait a few ms in things like OnKeyPressed/etc so that you give the user a chance to be "done" instead of firing off expensive calls on every single operation.

I don't know if VASL targets a version of Java that supports async operations, but that's another way to work around blocking the UI thread.
 

DougRim

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People would get them when they select that board/overlay, or load a scenario with that board/overlay. Check then, not as you step through the "Select board" list.

Here's an example of the delay I'm bothered by. I start a new game, select boards, and type "10" as the board number. The highlight jumps to 10a, and since it's faster for me to type than move my hand to the mouse I press the down arrow twice and press Enter to get to "10". (Also, "10a" is at the bottom of the scroll window, so if I were to use the mouse, I'd first have to scroll down then click on 10.) VASL takes about half a second each to check and update boards 10a and 10b. Why is VASL checking for boards I have not selected?
I am not sure what is happening when you type "10" into the listbox. I rarely use the keyboard in VASL myself and often don't think to check what happens if someone does. I will have a look at that behaviour. Based on your note, it appears that VASL is treating every board beginning with "10" as selected. If that is the case, then VASL is doing what you want (downloading boards only when they are selected), it is just that the selection process is wonky.

With luck we can get those nano-seconds back for you! LOL!
 

ScottRomanowski

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Based on your note, it appears that VASL is treating every board beginning with "10" as selected.
It's not "what I type", it happens as I use the arrow keys to move through the list. For example, if I open the "Select Board" window and hit the down arrow several times, in the Chat Window I see
- Board BD is missing. Downloading...
- Board download succeeded
- Board 00b is missing. Downloading...
- Board download succeeded
- Board 00dx is missing. Downloading...
- Board download succeeded
With a delay of a second between each. I think that VASL is checking and downloading each and every board that is highlighted.

With luck we can get those nano-seconds back for you! LOL!
A billion nanoseconds here, a billion there, and soon you're talking about real time!
 

uckelman

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If there's going to be an action taken on selection, the technique you need for making sure it doesn't happen immediately is called "debouncing".
 

PresterJohn

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I've always scrolled down to find my boards and don't have any real issues although "it would be nice" if the scrollable list window pane was longer down, so that less scrolling was needed. If that makes sense.
 

DougRim

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@ScottRomanowski When you "highlight" something (your term) by using Down/Up Arrow you are selecting it and VASL is going to test and trigger downloads when you do that. Same for typing in a board name. Same for clicking on a board name with the mouse. All methods lead to selection, selection leads to downloads, and downloads lead to playing the game.

Imagine if it didn't work this way. You highlight/select a new board by whatever means. This board is not on your device. How do you know what it looks like or that you have actually selected the board you want? VASL needs to show you the board. But it doesn't exist on your device. How is VASL going to show it to you?

Is "debouncing" sufficient?
 

ScottRomanowski

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@ScottRomanowski When you "highlight" something (your term) by using Down/Up Arrow you are selecting it and VASL is going to test and trigger downloads when you do that. Same for typing in a board name. Same for clicking on a board name with the mouse. All methods lead to selection, selection leads to downloads, and downloads lead to playing the game.
No, I do not think they all lead to selection!

Consider these actions. I start VASL (I'm running 6.69-beta2 on VASSAL 3.7.13), select File -> New Game, then click on the "Select Board" pull-down menu
Case 1) I left-click on 02 Geoboard. I see the updating/succeeded messages in the chat window. Then the board appears in the "Choose Boards" window and the pull-down menu disappears. As I move the mouse pointer over board names, the highlight follows the pointer but VASL does not check & update or preview the board. This is good.

Case 2) I use the arrow key to move the highlight down. VASL checks and updates every board the highlight moves over and I see the board after the update is finished. The pull-down menu is still there because I have not "selected" a board by mouse clicking or pressing Enter.

Today the board server is VERY slow. As I was testing this now, I pressed the down arrow about a dozen times. VASL spent the next thirty seconds checking and updating boards. I got VASL to freeze by just holding down the down arrow key for a few seconds! I just had to forcibly close the windows after waiting a couple minutes.

Imagine if it didn't work this way. You highlight/select a new board by whatever means. This board is not on your device. How do you know what it looks like or that you have actually selected the board you want? VASL needs to show you the board. But it doesn't exist on your device. How is VASL going to show it to you?
What you are saying is not how VASL works if you use the mouse! VASL does not preview a board if I hover the mouse pointer over it, despite moving the highlight there. I have to click on the board. Moving the highlight there by keyboard work differently -- if you use the keyboard VASL checks, updates, and shows every board you move over with the keyboard!

Is "debouncing" sufficient?
I don't think this involves debouncing a noisy input. The difference is that using the mouse to move the highlight does not trigger a check/update/display action, but using the keyboard does. Please either make the mouse work like the keyboard (pause to update each board you move the pointer over; this will drive mouse users crazy so please don't do it), or make the keyboard work like the mouse (don't check/update/display anything until you select by pressing Enter or clicking).

Alternatively, you could have both the keyboard and mouse check, update, and display only if you hover the mouse, or don't type, for N ms. 250? 500? Adjustable? This is probably what @uckelman meant. But you cannot implement this by simply polling every X ms and trigger the check if the highlight is in the same place as it was last time. The user could be moving the highlight up and down in between, and the check would sometimes catch it at the same board by chance, and sometimes not. I don't think having random check/update/display behavior is something you would want. The test has to be no keystrokes and zero mouse movement for some period.
 

zgrose

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Y'all are just having a semantic issue describing how a dropdown works.

When the value of the dropdown widget changes, the software takes an action (in this case, downloading from the cloud)

  • Mousing over the text in the dropdown does not change the value until you click a choice.
  • Scrolling the list via the scroll bar on the right side does not change the value of the widget.
  • Using the arrow key to move from value to value does change the value of the widget.
The suggestions Scott makes above aren't great because they break the way (most) people expect their OS to work.
 

ScottRomanowski

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The suggestions Scott makes above aren't great because they break the way (most) people expect their OS to work.
I guess I am an oddity -- someone who can type faster than they can move their hand to the mouse. I expect VASL not to do ANYTHING until I hit Enter or click on the highlighted item. Moving a highlight is not a user selection. If I scroll through the pull-down list of bookmarks in this web browser, it doesn't load the link I'm highlighting until I left-click or press Enter, whether I move the highlight with the mouse or with the keyboard.

Since the widget works differently for mouse and keyboard, why can't the action wait until after the Enter/left-click? When the dropdown closes.

The current implementation puts a keyboard user at the mercy of the speed of the board server. As I wrote above, today I was able to hang VASL by just moving the highlight down with the down arrow key! No one expects that behavior.
 

zgrose

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Moving a highlight is not a user selection.
You're not moving a highlight when you use the arrow keyboard keys. You're making a selection. This is how all combo boxes work.

If I scroll through the pull-down list of bookmarks in this web browser, it doesn't load the link I'm highlighting
But it does change the value in the URL box... it's selecting the value (edit: i assume you're referring to the history dropdown in the URL bar... I see now you are referring to a menu? Not a combo box)

Since the widget works differently for mouse and keyboard, why can't the action wait until after the Enter/left-click? When the dropdown closes.
It is possible to listen on events other than "the selection changed", sure. But it's probably better to just not use a combo box in the first place instead of re-defining how a combo box works for one application.
 
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