Asembling MG in DFPh being marked First Fire

[fgbelmon]

may a squad with a dm MG that begins its DFPh marked First Fire asemble the MG?. In no case?

Thanks

Pakko

 

[clubby]

As long as you're marked from firing your inherent FP or a SW, yes, you can assemble a dm MG and mark that unit Final Fire. If that unit was marked by using two SWs, no, because assembling a SW counts as use of a SW. This is for a full squad. The rules would be different of course for a HS.

 

[jrv]

A squad has the capacity to fire its inherent FP and one SW or two SW. When it is marked for firing its inherent only, it still can "fire" a SW. The squad might later actually fire a SW (either a ½" counter or an inherent SW such as PF¹), or it might use that capacity to fire a Gun, or it might use that capacity to assemble/dm a SW. Likewise, if the squad has fired one SW only, it can use its remaining capacity to fire inherent or to "fire" a second SW/Gun.

¹But not a MOL, which must be fired together with the inherent FP of the squad.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

A squad has the capacity to fire its inherent FP and one SW or two SW. When it is marked for firing its inherent only, it still can "fire" a SW. The squad might later actually fire a SW (either a ½" counter or an inherent SW such as PF¹), or it might use that capacity to fire a Gun, or it might use that capacity to assemble/dm a SW. Likewise, if the squad has fired one SW only, it can use its remaining capacity to fire inherent or to "fire" a second SW/Gun.

¹But not a MOL, which must be fired together with the inherent FP of the squad.

JR

Not too sure about a unit already marked with a 1st Fire Counter being able to fire a PF, at least not during the enemy's MPh. C13.31 states, "...A unit may not make a PF Check in Subsequent First Fire or FPF (A8.3-.31) -- A unit may not make a PF Check in Subsequent First Fire or FPF (A8.3-.31)--- regardless of whether it made a PF Check during First Fire." In as much as the unit would be marked with a 1st Fire counter, any additional shots would be considered Subsequent First Fire and per A8.31 only IFP (its MG/IFE-weapon) may be utilized.

 

[clubby]

But a squad is entitled to the use of two SWs including making two PFs checks as First Fire. At least that's the way everybody plays it. I would agree that it can't fire it's IFP and a LMG, be marked, and then make a PF Check as SFF.

 

[jrv]

Not too sure about a unit already marked with a 1st Fire Counter being able to fire a PF, at least not during the enemy's MPh. C13.31 states, "...A unit may not make a PF Check in Subsequent First Fire or FPF (A8.3-.31) -- A unit may not make a PF Check in Subsequent First Fire or FPF (A8.3-.31)--- regardless of whether it made a PF Check during First Fire." In as much as the unit would be marked with a 1st Fire counter, any additional shots would be considered Subsequent First Fire and per A8.31 only IFP (its MG/IFE-weapon) may be utilized.

It depends on what you mean by "unit". A squad can fire its inherent and a SW as First Fire. Even if it has fired its inherent (or a SW but not its inherent) and does not possess a SW counter, it still has the capability of firing a SW without using SFF. From the Q&A:

A8.31 & C13.31
May a German squad marked with a First Fire counter make a PF check during the enemy movement phase?
A. Assuming it can still fire a SW without having to use Subsequent First Fire, i.e., it either only used its Inherent FP or only fired one SW.

JR

 

[clubby]

The problem with the PF is that it's not represented by a counter. If it were, one (or both) would be placed above a First Fire marker if the squad had fired only it's IFP or one 1/2" counter SW. Those above the FF marker are still available to be fired as FF.

 

[Eagle4ty]

But a squad is entitled to the use of two SWs including making two PFs checks as First Fire. At least that's the way everybody plays it. I would agree that it can't fire it's IFP and a LMG, be marked, and then make a PF Check as SFF.

Yes, but that is called out specifically by the rules for firing PFs. I'm not sure of the rationale but a SWAG would be that the unit after firing its IFP predicated on a MF/MP would have insufficient time to prep a PF, readjust to get into a firing position to engage with a PF. Perhaps a game mechanic, but per A8.31 it is very clear that once marked with a First Fire Counter (& there are no SW/IFE First Fire counters officially), any additional shots are considered Subsequent First Fire.

Seems I was beaten to the punch by jrv's reply. Unaware of the Q&A and will happily comply with that interpretation. I'm certainly going to share that with my regular FtF opponents, as I've been "corrected" a few times for playing it exactly as the Q&A intimates.

 

[clubby]

The unit is marked with essentially "IFP First Fire" or the individual SW fired is marked "SW First Fire." The entire squad is not marked First Fire until it has exhausted its entire capability. We do it all the time. "I'll fire just the LMG at your moving HS 2 down 2." We all know even if the stack is marked "First Fire" (for those of us that play VASL or own BFP counters, they have the proper counters available to mark them), the squad still has its IFP available to shoot at full FP as First Fire.

What you're referring to is a squad that has fully exhausted its entire capability for FF and is now subject to the rules for SFF/FPF.

 

[jrv]

Yes, but that is called out specifically by the rules for firing PFs. I'm not sure of the rationale but a SWAG would be that the unit after firing its IFP predicated on a MF/MP would have insufficient time to prep a PF, readjust to get into a firing position to engage with a PF. Perhaps a game mechanic, but per A8.31 it is very clear that once marked with a First Fire Counter (& there are no SW/IFE First Fire counters officially), any additional shots are considered Subsequent First Fire.

The Q&A is clear. A squad marked with first fire may make a PF check unless it has fired two SW or its inherent and one SW.

JR

 

[fgbelmon]

OK Sirs,

From your words about PFs (I was asking about a dm MG), I think a unit can First Fire its IFP during the MPh, and later, during the DFPh, it can assemble the MG (equivalent to "use") because a squad can fire its IFP and a SW/Gun.

Pakko

 

[jrv]

From your words about PFs (I was asking about a dm MG), I think a unit can First Fire its IFP during the MPh, and later, during the DFPh, it can assemble the MG (equivalent to "use") because a squad can fire its IFP and a SW/Gun.

Yes, a squad has the capacity to perform two "fire actions" in the PFPh/enemy MPh-DFPh. One of these can be firing its inherent and the other is firing (using) a SW. Or it can fire (use) two SW. Instead of firing one (or both) of the SWs, it may disassemble/assemble instead.

JR

 

[Oberst Hausser]

Can I just get a 2017 heads up on that,

A SW can be assembled/ disassembled by a unit that first fired in that player turn.
Which would also work in Prep/ AFPh presumably

 

[Nearmiss]

Not in the AFPh.

 

[clubby]

This thread was started a week ago, I think you're as up to date as you're going to get.

 

[Jazz]

Can I just get a 2017 heads up on that,

A SW can be assembled/ disassembled by a unit that first fired in that player turn.
Which would also work in Prep/ AFPh presumably

Only if it was DFF. If they had Subsequent First Fired they would not be able to assemble as SFF forces you to use all MG in the attack as sustained fire and the unit is marked with Final Fire and loses the capability to fire other SW.

This not an option in AFPh as the MMC would not have been able to fire the MMG/HMG after moving and consequently would not have the ability to assemble said weapons.

 

[clubby]

It doesn't even matter if they could fire it, after not shooting or moving in that turn for example. A weapon can only be assembled or disassembled in two phases, per the rules.

A weapon may be converted to an appropriate dm SW counter (or vice versa) by the unit possessing it during any PFPh/DFPh in which the weapon has not fired, but such conversion counts as use of that SW (including the use of all ROF).

 

[clubby]

Can I just get a 2017 heads up on that,

A SW can be assembled/ disassembled by a unit that first fired in that player turn.
Which would also work in Prep/ AFPh presumably

A unit that has SFF is marked Final Fire not First Fire, so the example below about using SFF and not being to assemble a MG is really a null argument. A unit that is still able to fire a SW and is either not marked or marked with a First Fire marker but can still fire a SW is eligible. As covered above, this is a squad that has used ONLY it's IFP or ONLY fired one SW, a half squad/crew that has not fired anything or an SMC that has not fired or directed fire.

 

[von Marwitz]

This not an option in AFPh as the MMC would not have been able to fire the MMG/HMG after moving and consequently would not have the ability to assemble said weapons.

I think even German dm HMG/MMG cannot be assembled in the AFPh despite their being able to fire during the AFPh.

von Marwitz

 

[clubby]

I think even German dm HMG/MMG cannot be assembled in the AFPh despite their being able to fire during the AFPh.

von Marwitz

A weapon may be converted to an appropriate dm SW counter (or vice versa) by the unit possessing it during any PFPh/DFPh in which the weapon has not fired, but such conversion counts as use of that SW (including the use of all ROF).