ariel concealment loss

[BHBillett]

A stack of dummy concealment marks move in the open, No ground units have LOS to any of the hexes involved. Stukas prowl the skies above. Do the concealment are the concealment markers lost due to the Stukas above?

 

[Doug Leslie]

A stack of dummy concealment marks move in the open, No ground units have LOS to any of the hexes involved. Stukas prowl the skies above. Do the concealment are the concealment markers lost due to the Stukas above?

The aircraft have no effect on concealment unless they pass a sighting TC. The sighting TC treats the moving dummy stack as unconcealed. If the sighting TC is successful and reveals the dummies, the aircraft has the option of making another sighting TC against a different unit. The dummies will remain onboard in the absence of an enemy ground unit with LOS.

7.25 AERIAL LOS: Given its ability to fly anywhere over the mapboard (and thus to move to the most advantageous viewing position), an aircraft counter is theoretically able to see (provided it passes a Sighting TC; 7.3) any non-hidden unit that is not completely surrounded by LOS obstacles at least one level higher than its own Location. Before it can attack, an aircraft counter must always move to an attack position (7.4-.403)—from which Blind Hexes can still occur. Aircraft cannot cause loss of "?" or prevent the gaining of "?" by "seeing" an enemy unit; aircraft cause "?"-loss only by attacking concealed units and scoring at least a PTC result on the IFT (provided that attacked unit is within the LOS of a Good Order enemy ground unit). However, a unit moving in Open Ground would not be considered concealed to the aircraft, although the aircraft player may not inspect that stack unless it passes the Sighting TC. Should such a Sighting TC reveal only a Dummy unit, the aircraft has the option of whether or not to count that Sighting TC as its only allowed Sighting TC for that turn, but is subject to Light AA fire regardless of his choice.

 

[BHBillett]

Thank you. I have read that many times but really didn't get it.
So what I heard was the ? will only be lost after a sighting TC, however this will not cause the loss of ability to make another TC should it pass the TC. If it fails the TC . However should it fail the TC it is done for that turn.

 

[Doug Leslie]

Thank you. I have read that many times but really didn't get it.
So what I heard was the ? will only be lost after a sighting TC, however this will not cause the loss of ability to make another TC should it pass the TC. If it fails the TC . However should it fail the TC it is done for that turn.

The ? won’t be lost at all if there is no enemy ground unit with LOS to the dummy stack.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

To clarify @Doug Leslie's post, I think the Dummy stack moving in Open Ground would not lose concealment because the aircraft passed its Sighting TC. It would lose concealment because the enemy ground unit has LOS whether or not there was an aircraft involved. That would be the usual ? loss for moving in OG.

As I understand E7.25, for a concealed stack being attacked by an aircraft (assuming there are no other units/conditions that would cause it to lose ?), the DEFENDER makes a Sighting TC, and if it's passed, the DEFENDER has Right of Inspection for that stack. If it contains real units, the DEFENDER has to attack it. If it is a Dummy stack, the DEFENDER can choose not to count the Sighting TC as the aircraft's one allowed that turn. If chosen to be counted, the DEFENDER attacks the Dummy stack. If not counted, the DEFENDER still has to move the aircraft as if it were attacking so the ATTACKER can attack it with Light AA, and the DEFENDER can make additional Sighting TC that turn.

 

[BHBillett]

To clarify @Doug Leslie's post, I think the Dummy stack moving in Open Ground would not lose concealment because the aircraft passed its Sighting TC. It would lose concealment because the enemy ground unit has LOS whether or not there was an aircraft involved. That would be the usual ? loss for moving in OG.

As I understand E7.25, for a concealed stack being attacked by an aircraft (assuming there are no other units/conditions that would cause it to lose ?), the DEFENDER makes a Sighting TC, and if it's passed, the DEFENDER has Right of Inspection for that stack. If it contains real units, the DEFENDER has to attack it. If it is a Dummy stack, the DEFENDER can choose not to count the Sighting TC as the aircraft's one allowed that turn. If chosen to be counted, the DEFENDER attacks the Dummy stack. If not counted, the DEFENDER still has to move the aircraft as if it were attacking so the ATTACKER can attack it with Light AA, and the DEFENDER can make additional Sighting TC that turn.

Yep, that was my take on it as well.
Thank you again.
The long and the short of it is the dummies go away. Only advantage would be that the attacker MIGHT lose it's attack option for that turn.
As to the light AA thing, I don't know about you guys, but, the loss of use of a HMG or the like to maybe get a shot at an aircraft coupled with the lack luster results I get from an aircraft attack. Perhaps I am doing the aircraft attacks wrong (highly likely!) Although I have found the Stuka II's in VOTG very useful in slowing the Russian infantry reinforcements down. due mostly to the fact you get a new batch every turn.
Thanks again guys!

 

[ibncalb]

Don't devalue the use of dummies to draw a FB's attack, as well as the possible light AA fire opportunity a well placed dummy stack can cause a mistaken attack also.

 

[Stewart]

?ment Loss/Gain table.
Top of the chart.....LOS TO GO GROUND unit.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Ariel is a hard to conceal target, I would say.

 

[PresterJohn]

I thought it was a font.

 

[BHBillett]

Ariel is a hard to conceal target, I would say.
View attachment 31696

Love it!

 

[BHBillett]

I thought it was a font.

I are gooder at spelling