An Armor Leader Alone in a Tank: his options.

[PresterJohn]

Steve is always raising questions: He is arguing that a level one orchard cannot block his unit on a second level building firing above the orchard at a building beyond the orchard. In this case we are using board six an old Squad Leader board…Steve claims that it is a rare board. Can he fire from building K8 level two to a unit in M6 in level one? I am arguing that his LOS is blocked because of the orchard. If my unit was on level 2 on M6 building he might have a solid argument. Tim

You will need to look at the line of sight rules regarding blind hexes and the range of observer/obstacle etc. There are some LOS guides that you might find useful. Go to asl-players.net and look at the resources and play aids.

 

[clubby]

We started play on the scenario. Steve escaped. We have two questions already. A. A.. What happens if the Green French 437 exceed their ELR of Three? If I am behind a hedge and not on concealment terrain does the German tank retain concealment because it is not in concealment? Tim

Disrupted and no.

 

[clubby]

In my question number 57, I should have stated that the German tank was in open ground but behind a hedge. I think that the tank does retain concealment. Steve left because he had to wake up for work tommrow. So the questions have no need to be answered quickly. Tim

Vehicle not in concealment terrain and within 16 hexes and los of an unbroken and good order enemy unit loses concealment immediately.

 

[clubby]

Steve is always raising questions: He is arguing that a level one orchard cannot block his unit on a second level building firing above the orchard at a building beyond the orchard. In this case we are using board six an old Squad Leader board…Steve claims that it is a rare board. Can he fire from building K8 level two to a unit in M6 in level one? I am arguing that his LOS is blocked because of the orchard. If my unit was on level 2 on M6 building he might have a solid argument. Tim

Please don't take this the wrong way but you need a rule book. First things first this needs clarification. You're using level 2 and level 1. The question you asked doesn't make any sense. Orchard are level 1. A unit at level 1 being fired on by a unit at level 2 doesn't even put the orchard in play. Do you mean the unit being fired on is at ground level or level 0 and the firing unit is one level up from them or level 1. If that the case no los exists over the orchard because they're at the same level. When I originally read your question I wrongly assumed it was level 2 shooting at level 0 because that's the only way the orchard is an obstacle that can be shot over that there would be questions about los.

 

[clubby]

Again assuming in season orchards. Out of season it's just a hindrance.

 

[Robin Reeve]

In this case we are using board six an old Squad Leader board…Steve claims that it is a rare board.

Board 6 works for ASL, as all boards previously published for SL (in this case, for CoD).
Numerous ASL scenarios use board 6 - beyond the adapted SL ones - so it isn't a rare board at all.
I don't see how the idea that board 6 would be "a rare board" has any bearing on Orchards and LOS rules application.
"Steve" seems to be very ignorant of the rules, as so many of your friends who make assumptions about how to play the game from fuzzy considerations which hardly ever refer precisely to the rules (i.e. by citing rules references).
They all seem to function the same way, which is quite strange: so many wargaming buddies, but none who takes the time to argue from the rulebook...

I think I read that you did manage to have a rulebook handy.
It would really be helpful that you indicated the rules paragraphs that you need help to understand.
Otherwise we are left with a lot of guesswork to answer you.
And I would suggest that you don't mix up your questions with your friends' arguments, when they don't refer to the rulebook's paragraphs.

 

[TimNiesen]

Steve is even more ignorant of the rules than I am. That is my conclusion. Steve has rule book two. My rule book two was lost or thrown away by an irate tenant. Steve conjecture about the orchard was erroneous, but I saw his point about a two level unit firing over an orchard as posssible but only if the target unit was on a second level as well. My logic told me that a target on a first level behind an orchard was indeed blocked. Steve grasps for rule interpretations that favor him because of his desperation to win. He conclusion that the concealed tank lost their concealment within 16 hexes if not in concealment terrain proved correct. Tim

 

[clubby]

Please read and answer.

You're using level 2 and level 1. The question you asked doesn't make any sense. Orchard are level 1. A unit at level 1 being fired on by a unit at level 2 doesn't even put the orchard in play. Do you mean the unit being fired on is at ground level or level 0 and the firing unit is one level up from them or level 1.

 

[clubby]

Tim I have several spare copies of the pocket rule book, not the latest but the previous edition which would be more than sufficient for your application. I would be happy to send it to you free of charge if you'd like it.

 

[TimNiesen]

My good friend loves them, but my very bad eyesight makes it impossible for me to use it. Thank you nonetheless. I will have to have a replacement for my first edition Rulebook at some point. I did read Steve’s 2nd edition Rulebook about the use of Green troops but I saw no explicit reference to the issue of ELR. Indeed, my conclusion was that Green troops were akin to Conscripts and would disrupt. But Steve would have gone ballistic if there was no reference to what happened in the rules. As far as the issue of the orchards I agree that there was a debatable issue of firing from a secend level building to another target in a second level building over the orchard. But that the LOS was blocked if the target was on the first level of the main building on board six. I was simply attempting to resolve the issue. I should have recognized the obvious in the third question that AFV rules on the removal of concealment counters was distinctly different than the rules for removal of concealment counters on infantry. Steve attempted to read the rules section in his 2nd edition rule but he did not draw a conclusuion except that he did mention the 16 hex rule. It was almost 12 PM and he had to get up for work today. So we suspended the game until the next time that he can escape from his wife’s clutches! In regard to the 8-1 leader and crew I am escaping to live another day. As two of these obscure French tanks are sitting on my rear flank of my parked tank. And although his tanks are CE and therefore cannot fire in his defensive fire, I only rolled a Die 1 result on the secret roll for movement points for the dismounted crew. He will have two shots at my rear facing parked AFV. And he has little infantry support for his three French tanks, opening the possibility of my counter attacking his tanks with my reinforcement of three engineer 548s with Demo charges on turn three, which was exactly what happened in the real battle! I hope to be 28-4-1 against him after our next resumption of the scenario. He can occupy the stone building in the orchard, but he has no LOS to the first level of the building where 3/4 of my infantry resides. Therefore, that course is not a viable option for his out flanking force. Tim

 

[bendizoid]

In my question number 57, I should have stated that the German tank was in open ground but behind a hedge. I think that the tank does retain concealment. Steve left because he had to wake up for work tommrow. So the questions have no need to be answered quickly. Tim

The tank does not retain concealment because it is not in concealment terrain. Not the same as infantry, infantry would keep concealment. Common error. Next time use an orchard.

 

[clubby]

I give up.

 

[clubby]

I did read Steve’s 2nd edition Rulebook about the use of Green troops but I saw no explicit reference to the issue of ELR. Indeed, my conclusion was that Green troops were akin to Conscripts and would disrupt. But Steve would have gone ballistic if there was no reference to what happened in the rules.

19.12 DISRUPTION: Should an unbroken squad/HS/6+1 leader which cannot be Replaced by a lower quality unit fail a MC by more than its ELR, it is broken and marked with a Disrupted counter [EXC: Partisans, Commissars, Gurkhas, U.S. Marines, Japanese (and SS when opposed by Russians), Fanatic units, and PRC are never Disrupted; only broken].

A unit exempted from replacement by a lower quality unit is replaced with two broken half squads.

 

[clubby]

And just to clarify, if your recounting of the situation is correct, his unit DOES HAVE LOS if they are at level 2 and the other unit is at level 1, or vice versa. They are both above the orchard. Not only that but they'd have LOS to each other if they were both on level 1. Frankly it appears even Steve's tenuous grasp of the rules is a little better than yours.

 

[TimNiesen]

Okay, Steve will be happy with his victory over me in regard to the rules in this regard to his orchard LOS question. Let him mass his French 437s in the stone building and shoot at my German units in the big stone building in the center of board six. I would rather have him waste precious time attacking my initial force than outflanking that force. The French force has numerous leaders and decent number of MGs. But he has left his tanks weakly guarded by his mediocre French 437s without any SW. I rolled poorly (die roll of one) in my Secrrt die for the most exposed tank. I am going to withdraw the crew with the 8-1 leader one hex and abandon the AFV. The other tank rolled a secret die roll of four and never was in any danger. The abandoned tank and its crew if it reentered would have been vulnerable to two rear shots by two out of three of his French tanks 37* guns in his prep fire of turn two. Better than a 75% chance of a kill. Better to save the crew and its good armor leader. The game is suspended until Steve can escape from his spouse again. It will be interesting to see if my plan to transfer of the 8-1 leader to the half track with the 37L works. Tim

 

[clubby]

That's not a rules issue.