(A11.15) AT guns part 2

karl

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Hi

A squad advances in a hex with a concealed gun/crew and 2 unconcealed squads. The advancing squad is ambushed and the concealed gun elects to not fight in the CC. Both side are NE for the first CC phase. Next round the gun and crew elect to fire out of the Melee hex.

Question
Are they now unconcealed and thus have to take part in the next CC phase or can they stay separate as they did not participate in the initial attack?

New units advance into the hex. CC still NE for both sides. Next round.

The melee hex is fired into breaking squads on both sides so there are now both broken squads of both sides. The gun crew and one squad make the MC roll while the other side breaks.

The hex is occupied with 1 German broken squad, 2 Russian broken squads, 1 non broken Russian squad and the non broken gun crew.

Question
Can the non broken Russian squad fire out of the hex as there are no non broken German squads in the hex?
Can the gun still continue to fire out of the hex?

Cheers

Karl
 

Ole Boe

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karl said:
A squad advances in a hex with a concealed gun/crew and 2 unconcealed squads. The advancing squad is ambushed and the concealed gun elects to not fight in the CC. Both side are NE for the first CC phase. Next round the gun and crew elect to fire out of the Melee hex.

Question
Are they now unconcealed and thus have to take part in the next CC phase or can they stay separate as they did not participate in the initial attack?
Since they didn't participate in the CC, they kept concleamnet, and is therefore not held in Melee. They may not fire out of the hex though, due to A7.212.

They may fire into the Melee, but will become unconcealed, and I believe they will immediately be part of the Melee.

New units advance into the hex. CC still NE for both sides. Next round.

The melee hex is fired into breaking squads on both sides so there are now both broken squads of both sides. The gun crew and one squad make the MC roll while the other side breaks.

The hex is occupied with 1 German broken squad, 2 Russian broken squads, 1 non broken Russian squad and the non broken gun crew.

Question
Can the non broken Russian squad fire out of the hex as there are no non broken German squads in the hex?
Can the gun still continue to fire out of the hex?
No to both for two reasons:
1) Its still a melee even though the enemy units are broken.
2) A unit cannot fire out of its own Location if it contains known enemy units.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Ole Boe said:
Since they didn't participate in the CC, they kept concleamnet, and is therefore not held in Melee. They may not fire out of the hex though, due to A7.212.

They may fire into the Melee, but will become unconcealed, and I believe they will immediately be part of the Melee.
I believe you are correct as per the EXCEPTION in A11.15:
"[EXC: Any unit which retains its concealment (11.19) is not locked in Melee itself nor can it hold opposing units in Melee. It is free to fire in its next Fire Phase (into the Melee at TPBF; 7.212) or leave the Location in its next MPh/APh. Therefore, a concealed unit may wish to decline its CC attack opportunity in an effort to save its concealment. Upon losing its "?" such a unit in a Melee Location is immediately held in Melee]."

So is it considered to lose its concealment (and be part of the Melee) after ist first shot or after the fire phase ?

I.e. if it gets ROF can it shot again, or has it lost its concealment after the first shot at and goes into melee ?
 

Ole Boe

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It definately looses concealment on the first shot, regardless of ROF.

So I would say it is catched by the Melee immediately after this initial shot. Another possibility is to manhandle the Gun out of the Location instead of firing...
 

Matt Romey

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Ole Boe said:
It definately looses concealment on the first shot, regardless of ROF.

So I would say it is catched by the Melee immediately after this initial shot. Another possibility is to manhandle the Gun out of the Location instead of firing...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but said Concealed crew would only lose Concealment upon firing if there was a Good Order unit in LOS (which the units in Melee are not).
 

karl

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Hi

Other German units have LOS into the hex.

Cheers

Karl
 

WaterRabbit

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Also, if a GO enemy unit has LOS to that Location, the Gun will automatically loose "?" (A12.34 & chart) due to it firing at zero range.
 

Matt Romey

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karl said:
Hi

Other German units have LOS into the hex.

Cheers

Karl
That's great, but my point is that this is a requirement to lose Concealment. Ole's post made it sound that the crew would lose Concealment automatically, but there still has to be a GO Unit in LOS.

At least I think.
 

Ole Boe

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Matt Romey said:
That's great, but my point is that this is a requirement to lose Concealment. Ole's post made it sound that the crew would lose Concealment automatically, but there still has to be a GO Unit in LOS.
...and its a good and correct point, which I forgot when I wrote the above.

...but I would surely remember it during play if I was the one firing the Gun. ;)
 
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