A motion attempt in LOS of an abandoning crew D2.401

[bennyb]

Hi guys. A quick question.

I was playing a game in which my crew had to abandon one of my tanks due to recall in a previous phase. My opponent wanted to make a motion attempt in my movement phase because according to him the tank crew being placed under the tank had only just come into LOS because it had no counter form previously. So I guess the question is, is a tank crew inside a BU tank considered to be out of LOS?


thanks

Ben

 

[LDM]

"It's time to get things started..."
I say NO.I'm going to say that the crew is an extention of the vehical in this case. Now, I look for my RB to justify my call. :crosseye:
I love this game, I really do.......

 

[ryant]

Thats a reality arguement though.

2.401 A Motion status attempt may be declared during the Mph of an enemy ground unit by and DEFENDING Mobile vehicle which makes a Motion attempt DR = the number of MF/MP expended in its LOS by that unit during its MPh. The enemy unit must be one that had not been in the vehicle's LOS during that Player Turn prior to entering it during that Mph If a subsequent (free) LOS Check proves that the unit had been in LOS during that Player Turn after all, the Motion attempt automatically fails. A vehicle may attempt Motion status only once per enemy Mph and may not attempt it at all if already marked with a First Fire (or Final/Intensive Fire) counter. There is no penalty (including "?" loss) for failing a Motion attempt DR other than the inability to gain Motion status during that Player Turn. A vehicle which gains Motion status during the enemy Mph is marked with a Motion counter and allowed to freely change its VCA/TCA (provided it passes any required Bog Check DR as a result), but may still use Motion Fire (Case C4) thereafter. Even a vehicle in Motion may make a Motion Attempt DR in this manner so as to freely change its VCA/TCA at that time. In any case, a successful Motion Attempt results in neither Motion nor VCA change if any mechanical reliability DR (2.51) results in Immobilization or stall. If the vehicle stalls, this is treated as a failed Motion Attempt only.

The term unit would signify a different counter(?), as the tank exists with or without a crew (ie. even though the tank is immobilised and MA destroyed, another unit can jump in and fire CMG/BMG/AMG/sD/sN/etc). Only that particular crew could not go back into the tank they had been forced to bail from.

 

[LDM]

I agree
But, is the crew a KEU before it takes counter form on the map??
Ohhhh, I love this one.
In the event that the vehical had moved first and the crew was then forced by enemy action to enter the map, no problem: it's in the rules.
I suggest the crew was part of the AFV and then was known. However, I haven't found anything (so far) that the RB allows. I'm looking though...... :crosseye:

 

[bennyb]

Well here are some definitions from the Index:

Unit: "any game piece or counter with its own MF/MP allotment and normally capable of movement without being portaged, pushed, or towed. Infantry, Cavalry [but not horses], Dummy stacks, and vehicles (even if Immobilized) are all different types of units".

Infantry: "all SMC & MMC counters on foot; i.e., not mounted as Cavalry or PRC".

So according to the Index the inherent crew is not a "unit" as such and therefore is not in LOS simply because it does not exist in counter form while it is in the tank. So even though the tank "unit" is in LOS, the crew isn't because it is not in counter form. As much as I want to say I disagree with Ryant, the rules appear to me to point to it being out of LOS before it abandons the tank.

Ben

 

[bennyb]

To me it looks like the tank is a KEU, not the crew. But KEU is irrelevant in this case. The motion rules simply state it must be a unit entering LOS whether it be known or otherwise.

I agree
But, is the crew a KEU before it takes counter form on the map??
Ohhhh, I love this one.
In the event that the vehical had moved first and the crew was then forced by enemy action to enter the map, no problem: it's in the rules.
I suggest the crew was part of the AFV and then was known. However, I haven't found anything (so far) that the RB allows. I'm looking though...... :crosseye:

 

[ryant]

Ok using that analogy.

If a Wasp or similar carrier empties out infront its infantry of a tank, are they new enemy units entering LOS?

I believe crew or infantry or whatever coming out is an enemy unit that had not been in the vehicle's LOS during that Player Turn prior to entering it during that Mph.

Especially late war germans and their ATMMs and Panzerfausts. The motion rules were designed so the tank crew has an opporunity to react to a new threat.

I would consider this a threat (minor as it may be), its 1 or 2 FP can do damage to a CE tank, a threat that would not be posed by the immobile recalled tank which those occupants must flee from.

Also it states vehicle's LOS, not target's LOS. Hence if an otherwise HiP unit reveals in MPh and Bounding fires (don't ask me why he didn't fire in PFPh, maybe he forgot), it has entered the vehicle's (which is attempting motion) LOS.

(added after reading bennyb)

Thats what I thought. Each seperate counter is a unit. If something intrinsic turned into counter form it becomes a unit that had not been in the vehicle's LOS during that Player Turn prior to entering it during that Mph for this purpose.

Heres a good one:

In the enemy MPh, declares bounding fire and reveals a 9-1 armor leader to use the leader bonus. Does this qualify as a unit that had not been in the vehicle's LOS during that Player Turn prior to entering it during that Mph for this purpose?

 

[bennyb]

No, an infantry counter riding or being carried by a vehicle is still a unit while it is on the vehicle. According to the definitions of a unit anything not in counter form is not in LOS. So any crew of a carrier would be out of LOS but not passengers.

Haven't heard anything from the usual rules lawyers yet though!

Ben

 

[ryant]

So any crew of a carrier would be out of LOS but not passengers.

How about when CE?

 

[bennyb]

Heres a good one:

In the enemy MPh, declares bounding fire and reveals a 9-1 armor leader to use the leader bonus. Does this qualify as a unit that had not been in the vehicle's LOS during that Player Turn prior to entering it during that Mph for this purpose?

I would say absolutely correct, it wasn't in LOS when hidden in the tank but now that it's in counter form it is.

 

[bennyb]

How about when CE?

When CE the crew is still not considered a "unit" according to the definition of the rules because it is not in counter form.

An armor leader would exist in counter form after being revealed and so then becomes a unit.

Anyway, we probably should wait until the more experienced players have had a chance to mull over it Bruce?!!! :laugh:

Ben

 

[ryant]

wait a sec... Armor leaders don't qualify as a unit

Unit: "any game piece or counter with its own MF/MP allotment and normally capable of movement without being portaged, pushed, or towed. Infantry, Cavalry [but not horses], Dummy stacks, and vehicles (even if Immobilized) are all different types of units".

Fails on the condition that it isn't normally capable of movement without being portaged, pushed, or towed as it cannot exist outside of the initial placement tank(?).

 

[LDM]

The RB states in D5.1: All armed vehicals are manned by an Inherent crew which is not represented by a crew counter until it leaves the vehical.
Defn of Inherent: Any capability included within a counter with no need to be represented by another counter;...
If I had to make a call on this, I'd say No motion attempt because of these defn's.
What say you??

 

[ryant]

But the crew in the tank doesn't qualify as a unit as it needs to normally capable of movement without being portaged, pushed, or towed.

It needs to get out to gain that ability, hence becomes a unit.

 

[bennyb]

The RB states in D5.1: All armed vehicals are manned by an Inherent crew which is not represented by a crew counter until it leaves the vehical.
Defn of Inherent: Any capability included within a counter with no need to be represented by another counter;...
If I had to make a call on this, I'd say No motion attempt because of these defn's.
What say you??

That's a good argument! Where did you find the definition of Inherent in the rulebook LDM?



Ben

Update: Ahhh it's in the Index. Very good work LDM! I suspected there was something missing

"Inherent: Any capability included within a counter with no need to be represented by another counter; for example, any AFV has an inherent crew that can Abandon the AFV and take separate counter form"

 

[ryant]

unit ...needs to normally capable of movement without being portaged, pushed, or towed.

But I don't think tank crews normally walk around, nor do gun crews.

The only crews that normally move around the Japanese MMG/HMG/Mortar crews.

 

[bennyb]

Nope we were completely wrong and off-track Ryan haha. The crew is basically represented by the tank counter so it is always considered a unit.

 

[LDM]

So, there is an answer? And every one is Happy? :cheeky:
Cool. Now, I must find something else to challange the ASL masses......
I go to lurk in the RB....
Goodnight Gentlemen
(Oh ya. The index is full of nasty little pain in the a** stuff. And I keep finding more.... :OHNO: )

 

[ryant]

I've got a new question then.

Note M for Russian Vehicles in Chapter H - Russian Tracked vehicles with poor transmission.

If the motion attempt was sucessful but the Mechanical Reliablity DR failed, do you (1) roll for the number of delay MPs and (2) do you need to expend that number of delay MPs in your next MPh.

PS. I thought this "The Dead of Winter" was supposed to be a simple scenario.

 

[LDM]

Man!!!
I thought I got out of this!!! :blab:
Motion attempt fails and tank is immobilized.
Now, to prove it.

Second to last sentence in D2.401"...In any case,a successful Motion Attempt results in neather Motion nor VCA change if any mechanical reliability DR (2.51) results in Immobilization or stall. ..."