A couple of thoughts on France

[Mark Stevens]

So putting it in words rather than the Event structure below:

the Axis starts at 115% shock which is its default level for the earlier part of the war. Following Case Yellow it gets a few turns of initial 175% shock, which then falls to 90% as this level of high intensity combat couldn't be sustained indefinitely (the halt order at Dunkirk). This is meant to cover the initial rupturing of the French main lines. Very shortly afterwards shock returns to the normal 115% as the troops and vehicles are resupplied and reequipped. A few turns later the second phase of the offensive begins at only 130% shock, but this lasts longer and is meant to allow for the final part of the campaign which saw France defeated south of the Somme.

All highly artificial, but we need some way to simulate the shock effect of blitzkrieg without simply turning the Germans into supermen for several consecutive months.

 

[06 Maestro]

My game is in the parameters you outlined above. I will be expecting a new TO for the 130% within one to 4 turns. I will report that good news in this thread when it happens; as I'm confident it will.

 

[Mantis]

I'll check and see as well...

 

[Sturlungur]

I never got round to playing EA2 - it's one of several on the list - but how does the French Army perform without this bonus? As we've discussed before, no Allied player with the slightest interest in military history is going to sling the best of his French motorised and infantry units into Belgium to be cut off and destroyed by a sudden German armoured thrust, so the French won't have lost them for the second phase of the campaign.

This may mean that it's possible either for the French to stop the Germans cold or, at the very least, bleed them dry in a battle of attrition: either way, bang goes any sort of simulation of WWII in Europe.

Even with the two bonuses in EA, a good French defence can inflict heavier casualties than historically. Or, do the improvements that you made to the French OOB make them relatively weaker than the Germans?

I don't think that it's possible to simulate very narrow divisional thrusts like the crossing of the Meuse in a corps level game on this ground scale, let alone the paralysis of the French High Command, so you do need artificial bonuses to keep things moving.

Ditto the 'Barbarossa' and 'Overlord' bonuses now that I come to think of it.

Historically the Germans got detailed information on all the allied units and their positions through good intelligence. This enabled them to choose their attack focus on the eve of the attack. Maybe something like detailed information of allied positions instead of to high bonus can be temorarily modeled in order to present German advantage? Not to forget that at that time the Allied intelligence services failed big time.

 

[06 Maestro]

The TO to resume the offensive appeared on schedule. So all is well except that anouncement of "German Forces Rested..."it is a little misleading.

 

[Mark Stevens]

'German forces return to full strength and eagerly await resumption of the offensive'? It's not going to fit.

 

[Ben Turner]

'German forces return to full strength and eagerly await resumption of the offensive'? It's not going to fit.

"Old Duffers at OKH quit complaining and let the army get on with its job"? Probably even longer.

 

[Sturlungur]

I recently read a book by Hinsley: British Intelligence during the Second World War. It's Influence on Strategy and Operations.

It is quite a heavy read but very informative. There the author states that the Germans had detailed information on the Allied units and their positions at the start of Fall Gelb. They could therefore choose the direction of their attack accordingly. The Allies on the other hand had no similar information on the German Army and on top of that the Germans achieved complete tactical surprize. The British managed to solve Luftwaffes Enigma code before the end of May but were in no state to be using the information effectively at that time.

You know probably more about this than I do but I am wondering if Temorary intelligence on similar lines like this can be added to EA in order to allow the German player to choose his attacks and therefore maybe reduce the bonuses he is getting by starting Fall Gelb?

 

[Mark Stevens]

I've not read the book, but everything that I have read in the past tends to emphasise the shock effect of blitzkrieg style warfare once the initial armoured penetration was made between the French Second & Ninth around Sedan.

The British hardly covered themselves in glory but the French Army, considered the strongest in the world, and on paper a match for the Germans in the amount and, to a certain extent, the quality of its equipment, simply couldn't react fast enough on the strategic level to prevent their First & Seventh Armies (and the BEF) being cut off from the rest of the country.

Worst, a creeping psychological shock spread throughout both the French political and military leaderships.

This is pretty well impossible to simulate in a game of this kind, so simply giving the Allies a penalty followed by the Germans a bonus seemed a reasonable solution, and normally produces the historical result.

If we really felt that it was the German intelligence that was decisive, then I suppose that keeping the French locked in garrison mode until the Germans actually attack would represent it. The difficulty is - ignoring the problems of an EC game - that Axis players would be able to design a perfect attack strategy which would deny the Allied player a chance to do better than they did historically.

Now that the French are divided into different formations, I suppose that we could have the 1st Army Group (only) free to move from the start of the game, or the entry of France into the war, and keep the 2nd & 3rd Army Groups, the Alpine Army, and the SHQ & Reserves in garrison until the Germans actually launch Case Yellow, and abandon the Axis shock bonuses. Need to add enough units to the 1st to allow for an expeditionary force to Scandinavia or elsewhere. I think that this would just lead to a quicker Fall of France, but it might be worth considering: any comments?

On a related note, in the 3.4(a) or whatever, containing the corrections, the French Colonial formation will now be released if the Axis get to within two hexes of Paris, the Italians enter the war, or the formation is attacked.

 

[jlbetin]

Mark,


It is not a secret that I'm working on an article about may 1940, for WarfareHQ or Armchair. And due to this I know a little on the subject
It is true that the german known that the french units garisoned near sedan were mostly B units ( mostly old reserve guys many of them 1914-18 veterans)
they know too that there were hitting at the joint of 2 armies, the Corap one and the Huntzinger one.
They were especting a one month campain for exploitation of the French front breaking, not a one week action.

When German hit sedan with an important luftwaffe attack many soldiers were badly shoked and don't fight at their best but the worst was the "Bulson panic".
For those not aware of this perticular fact of the May defeat, here is the story, the 12th a radio message send and badly translated ( probably a morse one) told that many German tanks have crossed the Meuse river, it leads a panic which increased as a snow ball running in a slope by passing from 1st line units to rear area ones. And in a few hours a complete division the 55 infantry fall in panic and partialy vanished, a real hysteria phenomena. It stands to a point that the main HQ of the division avoiding to be surrounded move back and so stop to inform underneath units and stop too to get information, increasing this surrealist panic effect.
It was the beginning of the end because Général Huntzinger affraid by those false news ordered its western untis to move eastward around the 1st Maginot Forts, this move back transformed the initial German small bridgehead of 6 km in a big hole of more than 20km without any defending units in it.

Der WanderCry:shock:

 

[Sturlungur]

Very interesting how bad intelligence, fear and panic caused the French defenceline to collapse so early. Also that the Germans could choose to attack a weakly defended sector manned with second rate forces.

It is difficult to model in a game on similar scale like EA but when you see bonuses that one side gets awarded affecting all the fronts like when the Germans attack France getting huge bonuses that the German player can use on other fronts at the same time with careful planning then you start to wonder if you can do something to offset that.

Your new plan by garrisoning parts of the French army could just do the trick Mark. But should the German bonus not be lowered then?

So that the Allied player has some free options in defending France could he not be allowed more freedom to station his forces (i.e. not garrison mode) but the German player should instead get the option of inspecting the Allied defences for ... say 2 turns before he chooses his axis of advance. He could thereby discover where the second rate forces are defending and what forces are behind them. Maybe that would be enough to crack open the first line of defence without too huge bonus - or maybe not.

 

[jlbetin]

Very interesting how bad intelligence, fear and panic caused the French defenceline to collapse so early. Also that the Germans could choose to attack a weakly defended sector manned with second rate forces.

It is difficult to model in a game on similar scale like EA but when you see bonuses that one side gets awarded affecting all the fronts like when the Germans attack France getting huge bonuses that the German player can use on other fronts at the same time with careful planning then you start to wonder if you can do something to offset that.

Your new plan by garrisoning parts of the French army could just do the trick Mark. But should the German bonus not be lowered then?

So that the Allied player has some free options in defending France could he not be allowed more freedom to station his forces (i.e. not garrison mode) but the German player should instead get the option of inspecting the Allied defences for ... say 2 turns before he chooses his axis of advance. He could thereby discover where the second rate forces are defending and what forces are behind them. Maybe that would be enough to crack open the first line of defence without too huge bonus - or maybe not.

A game is not replaying history, history is contingency.
You can't modelize the Bulson panic, a message badly translated give that, But in German side a same kind of panic occured nearby the 16th of May when it was declared that the spearhead of guderian units were surrounded, but it was stopped and forces return under control. In real the message was badly heared, BUT german hold their lines in this case, if they were moving back things could have changed too.

What Mark modelize here was the inability of both armies French and British to counteract the quick German moves. And this gave realy a shock to both armies.

I told it once again a message sent by a forward units HQ took nearby 24H to reach the GQG and General Gamelin and orders given by him took an other 24 hours to reach the initial HQ -> 48 Hours. To add more truth to the 80% shock of Mark, the French GQG relied only on phone and had refused to use any radio.:surprise:

Now boys Fasten your seat belt,
when Weygand replaced Gamelin as Commander in Chief ( was in end of may), he moves his GQG to a Castle in place I can't remember the name, but this castle had only one LINE and it was impossible to reach the GQG between 12h00 and 14h00 as the post office girl in charge of managing the local hand switch was taking her lunch time pause

So shock used here is justice, and from all what I read, it proves me that both French and British were playing they own tactics without making any effort for actions coherence (at high level, because at low level they did it a lot odf fightings as brother in arms). Every player made his own choregraphy without coordination !!!!

Der WanderSadSoSad:OHNO:

 

[Sturlungur]

Yes JLBetin you cannot reproduce that panic exactly. Nor should you in a game like this. But this panic was probably much due to first class battle-hardened soldiers hitting second rate untried soldiers and on top of that the achieved complete tactical surprize.

While I like many aspects of Marks way of modeling WW2 then I feel bound to ask if you could produce the effects of the initial onslaugth by allowing the German player to see where the second rate troops are (the ones with very low profiency) and then hit them very hard causing them to run. This may of course not be possible given the scale of EA but I felt it was OK to ask

 

[jlbetin]

Yes JLBetin you cannot reproduce that panic exactly. Nor should you in a game like this. But this panic was probably much due to first class battle-hardened soldiers hitting second rate untried soldiers and on top of that the achieved complete tactical surprize.

While I like many aspects of Marks way of modeling WW2 then I feel bound to ask if you could produce the effects of the initial onslaugth by allowing the German player to see where the second rate troops are (the ones with very low profiency) and then hit them very hard causing them to run. This may of course not be possible given the scale of EA but I felt it was OK to ask

I don't know if Marks knows what were the level of mobilisation of French division F A or B? and reproduce it here. but all B divisions in the Alps acted as professional units against Italians, many French non professional formations made desesperate defense against German by instance near Lyon or in Lille, where some professional refused to fight ( some examplesin mid june), so B ot not B that's the question ( )

Der WanderSkullInTheHand

 

[Sturlungur]

True JLBetin. You probably never know until war hits you in the face how you will react. War is full of these stories, superbly trained and equipped soldiers break down and run away when attacked whereas civilians can take up arms and stop the most determined opponent.

But isn't this reflected in some way in OPAW? In the profiency of untried units where there can be a fluctuation plus or minus when the unit first enters battle?

Regarding the use of telephone of the French armies. Don't be too harsh on your countrymen. Using telephone was a great security measure (though one line with GHQ is maybe a little bit to few ) The Germans introduced enormous amount of radio traffic while waging war. Though they encrypted most of it this became one of their major causes of their downfall. When the British solved the Enigma for good then all this radio traffic became truly terrible for the Germans.

 

[Ben Turner]

I've not read the book, but everything that I have read in the past tends to emphasise the shock effect of blitzkrieg style warfare once the initial armoured penetration was made between the French Second & Ninth around Sedan.

The intelligence aspect is something which I've seen emphasised before- particularly in E.R. May's book, Strange Victory.

As with all such things, the ultimate result was due to a combination of factors. It might be worth widening the gap between the theatre recon levels of the two forces, with events to close the gap later in the war (if you can find 'em).

Now that the French are divided into different formations, I suppose that we could have the 1st Army Group (only) free to move from the start of the game,

This is broadly similar to what I have done in EA2. Worth a try.

and abandon the Axis shock bonuses.

Note that the existing early-game Axis shock bonuses are pretty significant.

 

[Ben Turner]

It is not a secret that I'm working on an article about may 1940, for WarfareHQ or Armchair.

Really? I'm writing a dissertation on the subject.... with reference to wargaming. Don't recall if I already mentioned this.

And in a few hours a complete division the 55 infantry fall in panic and partialy vanished, a real hysteria phenomena.

The only reference I can find to 55th Division routing is on the 14th May, after the Germans begin their crossing. Whole divisions do not rout because of a single report. Even incompetents like Klopper, commander of Tobruk in 1942, can only cripple their command through such mistakes- the constituent units under them continue to fight.

I'm not convinced by this- it seems like an effort to place the burden of blame back onto chance or, at least, onto a few heads rather than the whole army.

 

[Ben Turner]

I told it once again a message sent by a forward units HQ took nearby 24H to reach the GQG and General Gamelin and orders given by him took an other 24 hours to reach the initial HQ -> 48 Hours. To add more truth to the 80% shock of Mark, the French GQG relied only on phone and had refused to use any radio.:surprise:

This delay in issuing orders is something really quite key. TOAW can handle it after a fashion- and the full-week turns helps. Generally, this whole thing represents an attitude which had come to define the French army's approach to war, which can be summed up in two words, quoted here from Doughty's Seeds of Disaster: "indispensible delays".

 

[jlbetin]

Really? I'm writing a dissertation on the subject.... with reference to wargaming. Don't recall if I already mentioned this.



The only reference I can find to 55th Division routing is on the 14th May, after the Germans begin their crossing. Whole divisions do not rout because of a single report. Even incompetents like Klopper, commander of Tobruk in 1942, can only cripple their command through such mistakes- the constituent units under them continue to fight.

I'm not convinced by this- it seems like an effort to place the burden of blame back onto chance or, at least, onto a few heads rather than the whole army.

Ben it is a very well known fact in France, try to find on the net articles about the Bulson Panic.
The 55 infantry division has vanished in few hours because of the false news that German Panzer had crossed the Meuse river.

Der WanderTelephoneIsTheMustForOrders

 

[jlbetin]

This delay in issuing orders is something really quite key. TOAW can handle it after a fashion- and the full-week turns helps. Generally, this whole thing represents an attitude which had come to define the French army's approach to war, which can be summed up in two words, quoted here from Doughty's Seeds of Disaster: "indispensible delays".

I'm reading a very good book about 1940 in French obviously but all the authors are Anglo-saxons or German.
the article I'm reading is made by Denis E Showalter and the title is What the French army understood about modern warfare. French made the right analysis but as you pinpointed it, time was not running the same on the German side

Der WanderCryMyBelovedcountry