A couple of thoughts on France

[Mantis]

YES YES YES , fell free to do it, You are really welcome

oops he is still waiting for my turn 2, I'm gonna to send him asap

Der WanderAbsent-Minded :cheeky:

Ping me..

 

[Ben Turner]

Otherwise the temptation must be to abandon North Africa entirely, and just stuff Northern France even further, which the French Government didn't do.

Possibly. Obviously, absent these units, the Italians when activated can overrun French North Africa.

On the other hand, these units were a) of low quality and b) essential for internal security in this vast area. Personally I could go either way on this.

I was wondering what players think about moving either the surrender trigger, OR the supply point, to Orleans (Lyon?).

In EA2 (anyone play this, btw?) I removed the supply point altogether. The French can survive off the supply points on the Channel and Atlantic Coastline.

I looked at Mantis' destruction of the "perfect defence" shown above. It looks to me like the Panzertruppen took massive losses in the attack. The broken-down units reduced to 2-3s.

 

[Ben Turner]

I agree totally with Mark. In a game sense, the only reason France even exists is to cause as much hell for the Germans as is possible before being wiped out.

This is an interesting problem in the game, since the French obviously weren't interested in dying so that Russia could take Berlin six months earlier.

The solution? Difficult to say. The only thing I can think of is house rules for all units to be on minimise losses after a certain point.... but I don't see anyone going for that.

 

[Ben Turner]

Apart from the initial German invasion of Poland, when the Luftwaffe will shoot down the Red Air Force if it remains too close to the western border, I haven't found this to be too much of a problem.

In this instance, after the Polish air force is destroyed you could agree with your opponent not to set any units to air superiority. This would prevent interaction between the two air forces.

 

[Mantis]

I looked at Mantis' destruction of the "perfect defence" shown above. It looks to me like the Panzertruppen took massive losses in the attack. The broken-down units reduced to 2-3s.

No. I bled that specific unit white, that's why it's split in the first place. Kraut did not want to use houserules on supply drain attacks, so I was free to go as hard with them as I wanted. That armor korps saw more battle than the rest of the army! If you have a peek at the other big units in the final shots, most of them are still close to full strength.

 

[Mantis]

This is an interesting problem in the game, since the French obviously weren't interested in dying so that Russia could take Berlin six months earlier.

Well, we're in the very first couple of versions that lock the Colonial units in place, so France is going to be crushed a little easier from now on. And with fewer units, a broader front can be used to greater effect.

My point above was more in a game-sense type of thing. I realistically don't sit there gaming France thinking 'THIS time I'll turn the Axis back!'. I hope to provide a solid D, and that's about it.

And there have been a couple times I've kept France alive - but with the exception of Germany and France being at war, the game has no further similarity to any WWII I'd ever heard of. :laugh:

 

[Ben Turner]

No. I bled that specific unit white, that's why it's split in the first place. Kraut did not want to use houserules on supply drain attacks, so I was free to go as hard with them as I wanted. That armor korps saw more battle than the rest of the army! If you have a peek at the other big units in the final shots, most of them are still close to full strength.

So they are. However there are several other units which are drained out. And certainly your losses must have been far and away above what you'd normally expect.

Note this isn't about your playing ability- rather about the realism of this tactic.

 

[Ben Turner]

Well, we're in the very first couple of versions that lock the Colonial units in place, so France is going to be crushed a little easier from now on. And with fewer units, a broader front can be used to greater effect.

Nevertheless, one's still going to see French units on ignore losses, and making rabid counterattacks in their final turn. This doesn't match the historical behaviour of France after its fate was sealed.

 

[Mantis]

So they are. However there are several other units which are drained out. And certainly your losses must have been far and away above what you'd normally expect.

Note this isn't about your playing ability- rather about the realism of this tactic.

No, not really. There were a couple of attacks that were expensive, that's true. But the inclusion of 'legal' supply drain attacks saw me mostly just cutting into his lines in predetermined areas, and getting massive French evaps as their units were unable to retreat due to the 9 units/hex restrictions. I have smashed my way through in a more direct approach from the Low Countries and taken far heavier losses. IIRC, this campaign actually saved me many thousand of HRSs over a typical campaign, but I concede that this is mostly due to the inclusion of the supply drain tactic, as wiping virtually the entire French army is going to be expensive if you do it the 'proper' way.

 

[Ben Turner]

No, not really. There were a couple of attacks that were expensive, that's true. But the inclusion of 'legal' supply drain attacks saw me mostly just cutting into his lines in predetermined areas, and getting massive French evaps as their units were unable to retreat due to the 9 units/hex restrictions.

Ah yes- this is exacerbated by the presence of so many units at divisional scale, which presumably proceed to break up into regiments, meaning that one 33km/hex can be filled by three divisions.

 

[jlbetin]

Nevertheless, one's still going to see French units on ignore losses, and making rabid counterattacks in their final turn. This doesn't match the historical behaviour of France after its fate was sealed.

Depends of units and officers. Got exemples of constitued units in june 40 refuse to fight and defensive point made with disparate troops fighting more than bravely, especialy in defense of Lyon.

Even units of maginot line fights until the end, and an other exemple of fight and bravoure was the Alps army.

From all I read if officers had "balls" soldiers fought as their fathers in 1914.

The loss rate of German unit in men per day was twice in june reported to may. It prooves that they do not surrender immediatly as sometime "the Sun" wrote it.

German losses during France campaign
Killed 30093
Missed 16230
Wounded 117 615

French Losses ( lattest data from SHAT)
Killed 94203
Missed 12000
Wounded 120.000

Der WanderSedanAbbeville1940

 

[Mantis]

Nevertheless, one's still going to see French units on ignore losses, and making rabid counterattacks in their final turn. This doesn't match the historical behaviour of France after its fate was sealed.

Yes, that's absolutely true. But there are many conventions of reality that do not translate well in game terms. Either houserules need to be imposed, or we simply do our best to model the situation using the tools we have, and try to ignore the bits of insanity that creep in.

Seriously though, I would have no problems seeing changes made that would increase the realism of this portion of the game, but not at the cost of the play balance. There has to be a way to ensure both. It is not too hard to envision a France that managed a better defence of herself, and that potential has to be included. As a student of history, I choose not to repeat the mistakes of the past, and I hope a game is designed well enough that this will result in a better overall result for my side than was perhaps historical. If the German swings through the Low Countries, and I'm sitting there waiting for him in well-prepared defensive positions, I expect the German to pay to get through, and so he shall.

Eric (Keef) is the most recent person to blast me out of France relatively cheaply. I really did not expect his thrust to be from that direction, and my initial reaction was not sufficient, as I underestimated the speed with which he could advance. Result? I got blown out of the water quite quickly, and Keef got off rather light. Because he surprised me, just like in history.

As has been said - don't just dog your way into the Allied lines and batter your way to Paris. Use a little creativity in your approach, and you can indeed collapse France without taking hideous losses.

 

[Mantis]

Ah yes- this is exacerbated by the presence of so many units at divisional scale, which presumably proceed to break up into regiments, meaning that one 33km/hex can be filled by three divisions.

Exactly. 1 corps, and the hex is full. Put those split up units down to 33/1%, and they evap like crazy. I really only had to fight each unit 'once', and then it ceased to exist.

 

[Ben Turner]

Depends of units and officers. Got exemples of constitued units in june 40 refuse to fight and defensive point made with disparate troops fighting more than bravely, especialy in defense of Lyon.

Even units of maginot line fights until the end, and an other exemple of fight and bravoure was the Alps army.

They were fighting the Italians- a bit different.

From all I read if officers had "balls" soldiers fought as their fathers in 1914.

The loss rate of German unit in men per day was twice in june reported to may. It prooves that they do not surrender immediatly as sometime "the Sun" wrote it.

I'm aware of this. However you have to agree that the ignore losses settings and the rabid counterattacks which players will inevitably employ for units which are about to be withdrawn are not realistic.

The French accepted they had lost the war by the time the Germans reached the Channel coast, all that was left was to restore French honour. Hence the French tried to stop Britain bombing Italian cities after Italy entered the war- they wanted to limit the scope of the war since they had already lost it.

 

[Ben Turner]

Exactly. 1 corps, and the hex is full. Put those split up units down to 33/1%, and they evap like crazy. I really only had to fight each unit 'once', and then it ceased to exist.

This is an interesting "hidden" weakness in the French army.

 

[Mantis]

They were fighting the Italians- a bit different.

:laugh:

He's got you there, JL.

 

[Mantis]

This is an interesting "hidden" weakness in the French army.

It no longer exists. Mark has changed the OOB for the French and removed alot of those tiny units. There are still several division sized units, but there is only room in the formations for a single unit to split into 3. iirc, that will stop the units from breaking up past the available slots in the formation, yes?

 

[Ben Turner]

Yes, that's absolutely true. But there are many conventions of reality that do not translate well in game terms. Either houserules need to be imposed, or we simply do our best to model the situation using the tools we have, and try to ignore the bits of insanity that creep in.

Well if we were to consider realism alone I would recommend a house rule requiring all French units to fight on "minimise losses" once the Germans get within x hexes of Paris, indicating the capture of the industrial areas in northeastern France which the French saw as essential to their ultimate victory. This, of course, is a killer for playability, and may cause problems with play balance too.

On the other hand, it not only prevents the suicide of the French army but also encourages the French to make the kind of forward defence which they were historically obliged to attempt.

Eric (Keef) is the most recent person to blast me out of France relatively cheaply. I really did not expect his thrust to be from that direction, and my initial reaction was not sufficient, as I underestimated the speed with which he could advance. Result? I got blown out of the water quite quickly, and Keef got off rather light. Because he surprised me, just like in history.

Unfortunately, by virtue of being a turn-based two player game (as opposed to a real-time staff controlled war), surprise is much more difficult to achieve and much more muted.

 

[Ben Turner]

It no longer exists. Mark has changed the OOB for the French and removed alot of those tiny units. There are still several division sized units, but there is only room in the formations for a single unit to split into 3. iirc, that will stop the units from breaking up past the available slots in the formation, yes?

This is good- however it brings to the fore the problem with a layered defence around Paris, especially without supply-drain attacks.

To make yet another cheap plug, in my version of Europe Aflame, I've prevented (most) units smaller than corps from breaking down by use of the BioEd and modified graphics. I left some with the ability to divide for use in the peripheral theatres where troop density is usually very light.

 

[jlbetin]

:laugh:

He's got you there, JL.

Ragnagnagna.

A true history:
In the train wagon where armistice is discussed between French German and Italian.

German officers came and told to the French they were lying about the Frecnh OOB in the Alps, French swear it was the correct one and gives proofs. 2 minutes later all French Officers saw the German officers falling down from seats pissing due to laugh (ROLFMAO is it right?) after comparing Italian OOB and the OOB of French units in the Alps, compared to the final advance of the Italian units!!!

6 french division 60.000 men facing 200.000 italian as 1 line units so 20 divisions, global italian division engaged 32

Der WanderOnceUponAtime