VBM Street Fighting with CCcounter?

[nekengren2]

The guru opinion seems to be that Infantry against VBM Vehicle gets 2 shots at Reaction Fire if necessary.

First MP - Street Fighting / Ambush.
Second MP - D1F penalty and no Street Fighting

If you follow 7.21........the second attack would happen with a CCcounter already on the unit.
7.21 specifically says the reason the CCcounter is placed is to prohibit non-CC Reaction Fire.

So...............WHY would placing CCcounter prohibit non-CC Reaction Fire and NOT prohibit CC Reaction Fire??????????? This makes no sense to me.

7.21 CC REACTION FIRE: Each Infantry/Cavalry DEFENDER unit that is unbroken, unpinned and neither Unarmed (A20.5) nor in Melee may attempt CC Reaction Fire, using the CC-vs-vehicle rules (A11.5, etc.; see also 7.211-.213) [EXC: Ambush is NA unless using Street Fighting; 7.211]. After completing its attack, that DEFENDER and all of its possessed SW (including those Inherent) and Guns are marked with a CC counter, if the vehicle has survived, to prohibit non-CC Reaction Fire attacks, and also with a First or Final Fire counter as appropriate for that attack.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

So...............WHY would placing CCcounter prohibit non-CC Reaction Fire and NOT prohibit CC Reaction Fire??????????? This makes no sense to me.

I guess another counter to indicate an inability to perform a Non-CC RF attack could have been used - but the rules writers choose a CC counter.

 

[Tuomo]

Second MP - D1F penalty and no Street Fighting

Wow. I didn't realize the "no Street Fighting" part. I guess I see how that happens, rules-wise, since the first attack (against the first bypass MP) would place a First Fire counter on the unit and its SW, but realistically, are you kidding me? You're already attacking THAT VEHICLE! I can maybe understand why you wouldn't want a First Fired unit to be able to Street Fight the next vehicle that uses VBM in its Location, but against the vehicle that you JUST Street Fighting Ambushed on its previous MP??????

What, do they think the defending infantry took the vehicle by surprise on its first MP, then ran back into the building and came out again on the second MP, so the vehicle is somehow less surprised?

That's just messed up. No wonder I've been playing it wrong, because that's just messed up.

 

[nekengren2]

I guess another counter to indicate an inability to perform a Non-CC RF attack could have been used - but the rules writers choose a CC counter.

Yes i think your answer is the way to think about it. Thanks much.

 

[nekengren2]

Wow. I didn't realize the "no Street Fighting" part. I guess I see how that happens, rules-wise, since the first attack (against the first bypass MP) would place a First Fire counter on the unit and its SW, but realistically, are you kidding me? You're already attacking THAT VEHICLE! I can maybe understand why you wouldn't want a First Fired unit to be able to Street Fight the next vehicle that uses VBM in its Location, but against the vehicle that you JUST Street Fighting Ambushed on its previous MP??????

What, do they think the defending infantry took the vehicle by surprise on its first MP, then ran back into the building and came out again on the second MP, so the vehicle is somehow less surprised?

That's just messed up. No wonder I've been playing it wrong, because that's just messed up.

Yes it seems crazy to me 2 attacks against the VBM guy but the rules are clear.

I have read various VBM/reaction fire threads and player aids and this second D1F ability was never clear to me. Sigh. Now VBM is much more risky.

 

[dwardzala]

Wow. I didn't realize the "no Street Fighting" part. I guess I see how that happens, rules-wise, since the first attack (against the first bypass MP) would place a First Fire counter on the unit and its SW, but realistically, are you kidding me? You're already attacking THAT VEHICLE! I can maybe understand why you wouldn't want a First Fired unit to be able to Street Fight the next vehicle that uses VBM in its Location, but against the vehicle that you JUST Street Fighting Ambushed on its previous MP??????

What, do they think the defending infantry took the vehicle by surprise on its first MP, then ran back into the building and came out again on the second MP, so the vehicle is somehow less surprised?

That's just messed up. No wonder I've been playing it wrong, because that's just messed up.

Or perhaps, the first attack got their attention and they're not surprised anymore.

Franz: Oh shit sir, they're coming out of the building to attack us!
<Some small arms fire and a couple of grenades bounce off the armor>
Franz: That wasn't so bad. . .
Franz (10 sec later): Oh shit sir, they're attacking us again!

 

[bendizoid]

Yes it seems crazy to me 2 attacks against the VBM guy but the rules are clear.

I have read various VBM/reaction fire threads and player aids and this second D1F ability was never clear to me. Sigh. Now VBM is much more risky.

Yes, it’s the MPs spent in the hex. Each MP gives the defender a chance to CC. You can even use FPF CC reaction fire on a third or fourth MP etc (have fun if you roll snake eyes=leader creation+HOB)...An overrunning vehicle spending lots of MPs in hex for instance.

 

[nekengren2]

Yes, it’s the MPs spent in the hex. Each MP gives the defender a chance to CC. You can even use FPF CC reaction fire on a third or fourth MP etc (have fun if you roll snake eyes=leader creation+HOB)...An overrunning vehicle spending lots of MPs in hex for instance.

I will be much more hesitant to do VBM in the future..............

 

[bendizoid]

I will be much more hesitant to do VBM in the future..............

Especially a very high moral squad like a berserker, they can FPF CC reaction fire like crazy.

 

[Tuomo]

And this is the situation that teaches you to start being anal about unused MPs. If you have 15 MP and use your 12th and 13th MP to end your MPh in VBM (in Motion), you can expect your opponent to start thinking in terms of 4 CC RF shots, because those 14th and 15th are spent there too, if I'm not mistaken. If the enemy infantry unit had been unmarked prior to this, that's one First Fire CCRF shot, one SFF, and two FPF. Depending on how desperate he is (or how high his morale is), that's a lot of chances to roll low.

Thus, you want to burn those MP earlier in your move, using your VBM with your last two MP and limiting your CCRF exposure.

At the same time, though, all of this doesn't really make me more hesitant to do VBM. If I'm using it in the first place, all I wanna do is freeze the defender. If he starts risking FPF, then the added threat to him is more than I wanted, but given that those FPF CCRF shots would not use Street Fighting and would have their CCV reduced by 1 for the half-FP nature of FPF, that's generally not a real great CC shot in the first place. Much more likely to break or Pin the unit, I'd think. So, yeah. More than 2 CCRF shots are kinda rare in my experience, but it's good to know they can occur (ie, you're not being cheated when your opponent wants to do it).

 

[nekengren2]

or the squad has has -x Leader, Vehicle is OT -2, no MG -1, D1F StreetFight Ambush -1, stopped.
You can get torched easy if they have 2 tries.

 

[nekengren2]

And this is the situation that teaches you to start being anal about unused MPs. If you have 15 MP and use your 12th and 13th MP to end your MPh in VBM (in Motion), you can expect your opponent to start thinking in terms of 4 CC RF shots, because those 14th and 15th are spent there too, if I'm not mistaken. If the enemy infantry unit had been unmarked prior to this, that's one First Fire CCRF shot, one SFF, and two FPF. Depending on how desperate he is (or how high his morale is), that's a lot of chances to roll low.

Thus, you want to burn those MP earlier in your move, using your VBM with your last two MP and limiting your CCRF exposure.

At the same time, though, all of this doesn't really make me more hesitant to do VBM. If I'm using it in the first place, all I wanna do is freeze the defender. If he starts risking FPF, then the added threat to him is more than I wanted, but given that those FPF CCRF shots would not use Street Fighting and would have their CCV reduced by 1 for the half-FP nature of FPF, that's generally not a real great CC shot in the first place. Much more likely to break or Pin the unit, I'd think. So, yeah. More than 2 CCRF shots are kinda rare in my experience, but it's good to know they can occur (ie, you're not being cheated when your opponent wants to do it).

Yes those unused MP are critical here.

 

[Tuomo]

or the squad has has -x Leader, Vehicle is OT -2, no MG -1, D1F StreetFight Ambush -1, stopped.
You can get torched easy if they have 2 tries.

Ah, but such a Sad Vehicle would then be laying smoke in the defender's hex The Russian Way, and thus contributing something valuable to the cause!

 

[von Marwitz]

or the squad has has -x Leader, Vehicle is OT -2, no MG -1, D1F StreetFight Ambush -1, stopped.
You can get torched easy if they have 2 tries.

Well, you'd be craving death if you attempted VBM under such cirumstances even if you only spend the minimum 2MP in Bypass...

von Marwitz

 

[nekengren2]

Ah, but such a Sad Vehicle would then be laying smoke in the defender's hex The Russian Way, and thus contributing something valuable to the cause!

hilarious. never thought of it that way.

 

[nekengren2]

Well, you'd be craving death if you attempted VBM under such cirumstances even if you only spend the minimum 2MP in Bypass...

von Marwitz

well i have done it with no idea what i was doing. newbie here.

 

[Tuomo]

well i have done it with no idea what i was doing. newbie here.

Asking questions is a good way to get better. The next one you might want to ask is, "Why the hell do I live in Central Florida?" ;-)

 

[nekengren2]

Asking questions is a good way to get better. The next one you might want to ask is, "Why the hell do I live in Central Florida?" ;-)

ummmm........maybe better than Rock Bottom?

 

[von Marwitz]

well i have done it with no idea what i was doing. newbie here.

Then it is one of those memorable occasions of 'learning the hard way' about an aspect of the game which you are unlikey to ever forget.

or the squad has has -x Leader, Vehicle is OT -2, no MG -1, D1F StreetFight Ambush -1, stopped.
You can get torched easy if they have 2 tries.

A squad has a CCV of 5, there is a Leader with a negative DRM with it, so let's assume it is a -1 Leader. By now your CCV is 6.

Then the DRM:

-1 Leadership
-2 OT vehicle
-1 no usable MG
-1 Street Fighting

maybe, the squad has ATMM, which would give it an extra -3, but let's leave that away...

So we are looking at a CCV of 6 @ -5.

In other words, only if you roll 6,6 boxcars, the vehicle will be unharmed. It will be immobilized on an 11, eliminated (no Crew Survival in CC) on 10 to 9, and burning on a 8 or less.

Which means, you'll need no second try for this one...

However, so far we have not taken into account the necessary PAATC. This is your 'biggest' problem in the given situation. If there is a leader with a negative Leadership DRM present, then you'll be probably looking at 8 Morale against which to make that PAATC (72.2% chance of success). SMC are exempt from making a PAATC, so even if the squad pins, the leader might take out that vehicle all by himself:

CCV of 2 (SMC)

Then the DRM:

-2 OT vehicle
-1 no usable MG
-1 Street Fighting

For a final 2 @ -4, which still has a 41.7% Chance of doing some damage.

Note that the Leadership DRM does not apply if the Leader is attacking alone. But if the leader whips out an ATMM (if available, 16.7% chance), then chances rise to 2 @ -7 for a 83.3% chance to do some damage, albeit chances would drop for becoming Pinned if he would roll a 6 on the ATMM check, reducing his CCV to 1 @ -4 for a 27.8 chance of damage.

von Marwitz

 

[nekengren2]

yep. one try is all it takes versus my wildly optimistic CE tanks ?