ASL: difficult to learn to play, easy to learn how to play well, and dying out

[Jumbo]

Even the strength factors arise from his using counters from Russian Campaign (IIRC) in his prototype.

The counters in "Russian Campaign" have, printed on them, numbers.

Squad Leader/Advanced Squad Leader counters have, printed on them, numbers.

And, the counters in the below-linked game have, printed on them, numbers:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8715/combat-normandy/ratings?comment=1

What is your point?

Thank you.

 

[Justiciar]

There is an interview with John Hill about the famous "4-4" counters and the connection to SL development. The interview is I forget where, and might be in several places. I wager Dorosh will know where both are...so too Pitman. But the point is Sgt. Dan is casting a little shade, but shade that comes from a known sun's rays. However, that noted, the game still cannot be beat, and that is what he is trying to do, all for naught....it goes on, and on....

 

[Eagle4ty]

BTW the game was not Russian Campaign but John Hill Games "Verdun". The basis was the same factors he used to arrive at the strengths for the units in "Verdun" were very similar to those he arrived at factoring for a Russian Rifle Squad, just a smaller unit. John worked closely with the Defense Department on and off and even helped design the U.S. Army's "Pegasus" battlefield simulation for battalion and lower units (essentially a wargame but stressing logistics, communications, and other factors normally not present in "for fun" wargaming). So his choice to use counters from a previous published game was more than just a random action

 

[Cult.44]

Even if you were starting from scratch and knew everything there was to know about WWII infantry weapons and tactics, you'd still have to assign an arbitrary number or value to represent the firepower of a basic squad equipped with bolt guns and an LMG then build everything relative to that. Why not 4?

 

[olli]

Guys your just feeding the troll and doing what he set out to do again!!!

 

[Xavier 658]

Guys your just feeding the troll and doing what he set out to do again!!!

I second that.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I would not say that ASL is a simulation. It's how John Hill imagined a war movie. Even the strength factors arise from his using counters from Russian Campaign (IIRC) in his prototype.

It was Verdun, apparently, not Russian Campaign. EDIT - beaten to the punch, but yeah. It's in the 2-Half Squads interview.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Too many ASLers want to be chart masters instead of tactical leaders, that’s why a lot of ASLers don’t play the excellent WW2 tactical games. YMMV

It does account for the backlash in the Combat Mission community. The first generation engine had pop up tables listing firepower factors and cover factors. The new game engine kept all that hidden from the player, so I am sure some of the ASL types who enjoyed crunching the numbers and playing by probabilities responded poorly to the more experiential game play.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

And many Computer games have tried to mimic the intensity of ASL and failed. If there was one, we would be playing it instead.

I'd be genuinely interested to know how you define intensity? I don't disagree, I just am not sure what specifically you are comparing. Certainly there are computer games that require as much decision making, even micromanagement, as ASL.

The one thing I can think of that makes ASL unique is the wider range of possible outcomes - particularly extreme outcomes, which are in fact relatively common. In the basic sense you have units that are killed, broken, or unphased - but the actual range of outcomes includes far more, such as PIN results, critical hits, Hero Creation, surrenders, Berzerkers, leader creation, ELR replacement, sniper attacks as a byproduct, etc. When those extreme outcomes occur on 2's and 12's, and either a 2 or 12 will come up on average 1 time out of every 18 chances, and you have dozens of DR in a scenario - I'd say wild swings of fortune are pretty much baked in to the system. So the excitement of the game is also one of its most maddening characteristics - the joy of reducing an impregnable defensive location with a critical hit, or the agony of your perfectly sited HMG jamming. I wonder if those extreme results aren't a big part of the game's appeal. Not sure any other game has as wide an array of those results either.

 

[Jazz]

What is your point?

Asking SgtDan to actually make a rational point is setting the bar just a bit too high for him to reach

 

[Jumbo]

Asking SgtDan to actually make a rational point is setting the bar just a bit too high for him to reach

You are correct.
However, that cheap shot at John Hill was too much.
I just had to remind cadet pebbles of the difference between a legendary designer, and a fourth-rate wannabe whose best design-moves are limited to cheating everyone who deals with him.
Apologies if I offended anyone.

 

[goatleaf1]

I'd be genuinely interested to know how you define intensity? I don't disagree, I just am not sure what specifically you are comparing. Certainly there are computer games that require as much decision making, even micromanagement, as ASL.

The one thing I can think of that makes ASL unique is the wider range of possible outcomes - particularly extreme outcomes, which are in fact relatively common. In the basic sense you have units that are killed, broken, or unphased - but the actual range of outcomes includes far more, such as PIN results, critical hits, Hero Creation, surrenders, Berzerkers, leader creation, ELR replacement, sniper attacks as a byproduct, etc. When those extreme outcomes occur on 2's and 12's, and either a 2 or 12 will come up on average 1 time out of every 18 chances, and you have dozens of DR in a scenario - I'd say wild swings of fortune are pretty much baked in to the system. So the excitement of the game is also one of its most maddening characteristics - the joy of reducing an impregnable defensive location with a critical hit, or the agony of your perfectly sited HMG jamming. I wonder if those extreme results aren't a big part of the game's appeal. Not sure any other game has as wide an array of those results either.

Second paragraph is spot on. It makes ASL great to play solo as well as FTF.