Exactly! best OBP and more chances to crank one. Essentially, he's the clean up man for the bottom of the order.
After "the Year of the Pitcher"
Saw both Yaz and Gates Brown play in my very first trip to Fenway; Sox lost 6-4 on a late HR by Aurelio Rodriguez...After "the Year of the Pitcher"
Yaz was the only official batter in the AL to hit above .300.
He hit .301.
Gates Brown hit .380! :devious:
Well I can respect that viewpoint. My perspective on Vince Carter totally changed after he so blatantly quit on Toronto. It wasn't as clear to me that Roger was dogging it for Boston or just got out of shape and was not able to perform at that high a level and fixed those things when he went to Toronto. Neither are admirable of course...
Well Pete never admitted he had a problem (until recently) and it's hard to rehab a guy who refuses to admit there's an issue. Not to mention there are rumblings about Pete's gambling habits that go back into the early '70s. The commish office investigated Pete at one point (maybe '73 when he won the MVP) so it's less than clear that a helping hand wasn't offered, but Pete refused.
You mean like Canseco & Ken Caminiti did? And some other lesser players have come forward and dealt with it - the former Expo who's now a sports talk host and was on the list did - blankin' on a name. Henry Rodriguez maybe? But you're right that no HOF candidates have admitted anything as they have a vested interest in not, i.e. their HOF candidacy.
It's true - it's not definitive that Rose's actions did alter a single game. 'Course they may very well have. I'll also point out that as soon as the Reds ridded themselves of Rose, they won the World Series. Coincidence? Perhaps. Maybe Rose just was a bad manager, but maybe...
It affects the integrity, but it's an odd effect - it's guys trying more to win while Rose's potential transgressions result in the opposite. It's a fine line to me that we condone those that work out more and eat right to perform at a higher level, but those that cross an imaginary chemical line to improve their performance are unethical cheaters. And it also begs the question of where do you hold Bonds if 75% of the league was also juicing? Was he just leveling the playing field between himself and the majority of the league? We'll obviously never know percentages (and I don't think it's that high, but...)
So far Pete's gotten the same treatment as the PEDs guys. No HOF & while none of them have been formerly banned from baseball, you don't see a lot of 'em working for teams as managers/coaches either. And as I noted earlier, there's a pretty good case to be made that Pete was betting on games he played in too. After all he was a player manager until '86. I'd bet on Pete having gambled on baseball as a player too. 'Course that aspect hasn't been proven.
Check out the treatment Bonds is getting right now. Are you telling me that nobody can use him? Just for a few months? With the playoffs or WS on the line and nobody will take him? :shock:
I've been a little surprised your beloved Yanks haven't panicked and tossed big $ at Barry to come in and DH. 'Course that would force Giambi to field, well try at least...
Roger being Roger...funny how life tends to work in cycles...
The case with most addicts, certainly.
Howe's (amongst many, many others) violations transcended MLB to the heart of the US Legal system. Cocaine was just as illegal in the 80s as today, no? There is no doubt gambling on baseball is a sensitive subject in baseball-as any student of the game will concede-Pete's biggest mistake was forgetting this as well as running risk with his legacy-something he was keenly aware of I think you'd agree-this above all else, is a sign of a larger addictive problem.
...like their legacy in the game? Funny how self-interest is 'okay' for them but not certain others...:hmmm:
Chop Block, offense, 15 yards! Cheap shot.
Try as I might, I'll never believe Pete Rose, Pete Rose contrived to lose at anything...
I find that hard to believe from you. "_Imaginary_ chemical _line_"??? The benefits you gain from PEDs are increases in physical performance, strength and stamina over what you'd typically be capable otherwise. It's one thing the IOC got right years ago...baseball's disgraceful neglect is not tacit approval.
Uh, just as guilty as the rest? I take that back, more than the rest. Skinny and lean Barry was a special player, potentially historically great on a Willie Mays, Joe Dimaggio level...without PEDs...now, ???
Pete Rose has always been a polarising man: you either love him, or hate him, very little middle ground. His gambling didn't help him get 4200+ hits...
Hearsay. Circumstantial. Speculation. All legal terms and equally applicable to that postulation. It kind of feels like dumping on the poor kid on the bottom of the pile...
They're saving their money for Manny...
Is it only me, or is anyone else sick of these prima donnas only playing around playoff time? Either play the entire year or not at all... (EXC: injuries)
As is betting with a bookie, not to mention betting on a game you're involved in. Rose is just as guilty of violating the law as Howe for his foibles. Did Howe ever actually get arrested? I honestly don't know - he was suspended by baseball 7 times, including once for life (overturned 2 years later). Rose of course has done time for tax evasion. You realize Steve Howe is dead? I didn't. Auto accident with some traces of Meth in his system at 48. And of course, Howe at least admitted he had a problem, something Pete never really has. Heck, Pete continued to go to the track religiously after getting thrown out of baseball for gambling!
It needed to be said. As a Reds fan it was somewhat of a mystery as to how that collection of talent was ALWAYS 2nd during Pete's tenure. Quite frustrating. I'm willing to concede it's more likely he was a bad manager than dumping games due to his gambling, but the small probability of the latter is poisoning in my view.
You are banking on the character of a guy that's now admitted to lying for what 15 years about gambling on baseball? While I agree, it's somewhat unlikely, if he got in deep enough with the gamblers...
I'm not condoning it - I agree it's unethical & the real crime is the potential to drive others to use, and risk their health, in order to compete with the juicers. But I do see the irony that taking a certain substance to improve performance is verboten while working out to improve your game is condoned & applauded. There's a fine line there & it's not a shock lots of folks have crossed it over the years...
To be honest I think what drove Barry to PEDs was MLB ignoring their abuse and openly embracing the McGwire/Sosa HR race and shunning Barry. At that point Barry said "OK - I'll show you what a REAL player can do on this stuff" and the rest is history. He certainly succumbed to the peer pressure, but it's somewhat understandable in retrospect. And Barry was still a legendary player prior to the PEDs - that didn't change. He can just go down in the Ty Cobb character class for great players...
Although filling out the lineup card those last few years certainly didn't hurt!
Hey, if you want to defend Pete on the "he only violated baseball's most sacred rule as a manager, not as a player" card, I think it's relevant to point out there were suspicions of him as a player too. Nothing proven, but where there's smoke...
Pete never took days off... :laugh:
Given Barry'd be a one year deal & what they're charging for tix at their new digs next year, the one thing I'm sure of is the Yanks can afford both w/o saving their pennies...
(I'll respond to the "Pete Thread later, I should get to work...)
Collusion by the league
Good God, I hope not. Given that he's closing in on 40, declining hitting skills (I know he's hitting now but overall), historically bad fielding (even with a small LF in Boston), and horrible attitude, they are almost guaranteed to get him.
Last night he was nowhere to be found when the Dodgers took the field in the 9th. Eventually he took the field with a new glove and his jersey half unbuttoned. I wonder how long Torre allows him to act like this, uncut hair and open jersey, despite team rules? Maybe as long as he is hitting? :kotz:
Exactly! :clap:
It's happened before...Collusion by the league
'Course the real kicker is the Yanks throwing big $ at Manny as he ages and is horrible defensively is the biggest favor they could do the BoSox. Just think if they took that $20M (or whatever Manny'll get this go round) and spent it intelligently? That's what's scary...
