This Hallowed Ground - Game in Progress

'Ol Fezziwig

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Bob Cloyd, the CWB-CWR honcho, thinks that there should be special allowances for Cav orders.

In our 3rd Battle of Manassass battle game (3BoM) at monstercon two years ago we played with such rules to playtest for the new CWB rules. One case in our game, the Cav was allowed to use Defensive orders but the HQ was not bolted to the ground, so it could effectively carry out its screening orders.

Keith
I think the orders system, in general, has enough flexibility built in to keep cavalry needs to a minimum. I agree they should be given more flexibility, such as unfettered ability to operate within command radius under complex (including defensive) orders. With that, though, a certain measure of responsibility is required to keep abuse to a minimum.

The nature of cavalry is usually such that they are incredibly brittle if used too offensively, yet, they should not be precluded from exploiting the occasional opening if it's presented; user beware. However, absent hidden movement/moderated games, they lose alot of the "eyes and ears" capabilities they historically were responsible for, relegating them to ad hoc infantry status or provost guards.

Using defensive order principles (e.g., defining a defensive "box") and locating the HQ (if present) wisely, cavalry can maintain 'screening' duties over a wide geographical area without requiring the HQ to move. Of course, roads are not always going to be conveniently present, but by a savvy use (dare I say, 'manipulation'?) of the command radius rules, a slow withdrawal along a defined path can occur to hopefully allow endangered infantry time to either gain initiative/new orders.

During an attack, the cavalry could follow the assault under a 'screening' order under the exact same principles as an infantry corps, which allows movement of the HQ during the attack as necessary. Typically, this would require the Army commander to order, unless a cavalry force was attached to a corps/division/brigade commander which gained initiative.

Little of this requires much beyond what is already in the rules set...
 

Keith Todd

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.......

Using defensive order principles (e.g., defining a defensive "box") and locating the HQ (if present) wisely, cavalry can maintain 'screening' duties over a wide geographical area without requiring the HQ to move. Of course, roads are not always going to be conveniently present, but by a savvy use (dare I say, 'manipulation'?) of the command radius rules, a slow withdrawal along a defined path can occur to hopefully allow endangered infantry time to either gain initiative/new orders.

...........

Little of this requires much beyond what is already in the rules set...
Good and interesting post, but I do think that very few Cav HQ were ever "grounded". The case I was mainly talking about are divisional, brigade, or regimental defensive orders for Cav, where they would need the exception to the rule of not having the leader bolted to the ground. Their CR is only 4 leader MP, so..

If I understand Fezzi correctly, I agree for offensive orders the rules probably do not need any changing.

Keith
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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... but I do think that very few Cav HQ were ever "grounded". The case I was mainly talking about are divisional, brigade, or regimental defensive orders for Cav, where they would need the exception to the rule of not having the leader bolted to the ground. Their CR is only 4 leader MP, so..

Keith
I agree basically with this, though perhaps sometimes (like early period Union cavalry or broken down late-war CSA cavalry) the 4 MP distance may well be perfectly viable. Some case could be made for having cavalry using the divisional (8 MP) radius for large swaths of the war, though that could be inserted into the game specific command rules (much like the CSA 'independant' cavalry in ITQF) on a game by game basis.

I typically like to see the main body of the rules adhered to in principle or grafted using the principles of the main rules set. By that, I mean using existing subsystems as the base for additions, rather than adding things patchwork to the frame (the Squad Leader/gamette syndrome). Of course, sometimes a "patchwork" solution may well be more elegant than a shoehorn and certainly more appropriate in some cases.

If I understand Fezzi correctly, I agree for offensive orders the rules probably do not need any changing.
Yessir, you do. I agree that cavalry should have a little more wiggle room than infantry units, but some of that can be molded from what we have already. Cavalry needs to be handled differently than infantry-and VPs usually hammer that point home quickly-and I think some of the restrictions forced on them by the rules could be massaged a bit here and there. The CWR rules are a good start, though it'd be nice to be able to play out the cavalry battles of Brandy Station and Gettysburg in CWB every now and then...


I apologise if I got a little long-winded on this, but I've had an iron in the fire regarding this for some time now and this has helped spark renewed interest in it. For that, I thank you guys sincerely.
 

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....

....

Yessir, you do. I agree that cavalry should have a little more wiggle room than infantry units, but some of that can be molded from what we have already. Cavalry needs to be handled differently than infantry-and VPs usually hammer that point home quickly-and I think some of the restrictions forced on them by the rules could be massaged a bit here and there. The CWR rules are a good start, though it'd be nice to be able to play out the cavalry battles of Brandy Station and Gettysburg in CWB every now and then...


I apologise if I got a little long-winded on this, but I've had an iron in the fire regarding this for some time now and this has helped spark renewed interest in it. For that, I thank you guys sincerely.
No argument from me :cool: , and no apology needed. Those Cav battles would be great in CWB!!:yummy:

Keith
 
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Game Update

Sam and I played the Union (Sam) 5:30 turn and the Confederate (me) 5:45 turn last night. To my surprise the Union has not only withdrawn from Cemetery Hill, but the 1st Corps and 12th Corps have pulled off of Upper and Lower Culp’s Hill as well. The Union is now reconstructing a line with the 12th Corps on the right and the 2nd Corps holding the left on Cemetery Ridge. This puts the remnants of the 1st and 11th Corps in the Union center. The Union Reserve artillery are using command radius to seize some high ground to provide some support to this new line.

The Confederates are now firmly entrenched on Cemetery Hill with all of the 1st Corps artillery enjoined by a couple of units of 2nd Corps artillery. These positions are supported by the brigades of Benning and Barksdale. Sam and I have had an interesting discussion on the geography that defines Cemetery Hill from Cemetery Ridge. Unwittingly we both had it mind that the 50.xx hex-row would be the line of demarcation on this.

These actions have essentially put both armies at rest with a 3 to 5 hex gap between the contestants and most artillery in a state of getting ready to unlimber from their respective movements.

Culp’s Hill remains unoccupied since the original orders given at the 4 AM conference only specified the taking of Cemetery Hill. The 2nd Corps currently has an order to attack Culp’s Hill (given before the Union withdraw) in D5 status. I realize I have given away some fog of war on this, but given the Union’s immediate objective I am real confident that the CSA 2nd Corps will occupy Culp’s Hill before any counterattack can form.

So I would like some feedback on my original orders to ensure that I’m following the game rules. During setup Jackson (Ewell), Longstreet, and A.P. Hill had no designated starting positions so I stacked them in the ANV’s HQ with Lee and on the 4 AM turn held a conference.

Jackson’s orders were to attack Cemetery Hill from the northeast using Rodes’ Division, with Early’s Division developing a line that extended along the north footing of Culp’s Hill, and Johnson’s Division extending from this line around the west footing of Culp’s Hill. Neither Early or Johnson were to attack, simply to move into position and seek cover from Union attack.

Longstreet’s orders were to attack Cemetery Hill from the northwest using the Texas (Robertson) and Barksdale Brigades with Texas taking more of the northern position and Barksdale moving past this to attack a little more to the south. The objective was to drive the Union off the hill, and once the objective was completed to set up a defensive front on Cemetery Hill.

Additionally, A. P. Hill was to form an attack on Cemetery Hill from the southwest and form a line extending to the southwest. Since his red battle shirt is still at the laundry in Gettysburg he has yet to move.
.
Cemetery Hill would then become the Confederate center with Jackson have the left and A. P. Hill having the right.

Jackson accepted his order at 4 AM and roads were cleared to allow Doles to move up for an immediate attack which was made at 4:15. Additionally, artillery was brought into forward positions so it could support this attack within the visibility limitations. The deployment of the others didn’t go quite as well as Hays made a mistake about LOS and took a loss and somehow I got confused about Stuert’s brigade and had them move to the right so then I had to reposition tem back to the left and they took some causalities in this. I found it very tough to play out the logistics of moving even though there were many roads to use, but it seemed like there were only a couple of critical junctures where everything had to move through.

Longstreet accepted his orders at 4:15, and began moving into position. I made an error and didn’t force march during the 4:15 turn, but force march was used during the 4:30 turn. With the repositioning of the 2nd Corps, the 1st Corps had good use of roads and came into position quite quickly.

So do the orders given at the conference fall within the game play?
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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Jackson’s orders were to attack Cemetery Hill from the northeast using Rodes’ Division, with Early’s Division developing a line that extended along the north footing of Culp’s Hill, and Johnson’s Division extending from this line around the west footing of Culp’s Hill. Neither Early or Johnson were to attack, simply to move into position and seek cover from Union attack.
There's nothing wrong with this order, though, if I may humbly suggest, it could be simplified. Jackson could be ordered to avenge his arm by taking Cemetary Ridge from >X< to Culp's Hill to >Y<. There's no need to order each division individually so long as the goal is ultimately reached.


Longstreet’s orders were to attack Cemetery Hill from the northwest using the Texas (Robertson) and Barksdale Brigades with Texas taking more of the northern position and Barksdale moving past this to attack a little more to the south. The objective was to drive the Union off the hill, and once the objective was completed to set up a defensive front on Cemetery Hill.
...here, though, you might get into trouble. The part of the order to attack Cemetery Hill is well and good, but you can't tack on what is, essentially, a Defensive Order as well (especially if you're playing with Defensive Orders). That would require another order altogether once, as I am confident the Confederates will drive the yankee pig-dogs off the hill, the attack is successful.


Additionally, A. P. Hill was to form an attack on Cemetery Hill from the southwest and form a line extending to the southwest.
This also sounds fine as long as the "... form a line..." portion is not also a Defensive Order coupled with an attack order. Again, by stating the attack objectives in the order, you have a de facto defensive position on completion (hopefully) of the attack. Then, the wondeful vagaries of the order acceptance process begins anew.



Since his red battle shirt is still at the laundry in Gettysburg he has yet to move.
You did not stack him with Jenny Wade, did you?:eek:
 
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Update

We played Friday night and it was fairly uneventful from a combat perspective. In the limited attacks each side did get an attack resulting in low ammo so some pain was felt.

The Union continues to construct a defensive line from Cemetery Ridge (2n Corps) through Lightner Hollow (1st and 11th Corps) into McAllister's Woods (12th Corps). The 3rd Corps is fastened down on around Little Round Top and Buford's Cavalry is screening the Union left.

The Confederates are finally seeing some movement from AP Hill (once he realized Jenny Wade was a "baker" and not a laundress he got out of their quick, didn't want to incur the wrath of the Christian Jackson, especially since his resurrection) and Jackson's 2n Corps accepted their order as well on are moving up on to Upper and Lower Culp's Hill.

Sam has some pic's and I'm sure he will post them some day.
 
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Stragglers

Keep up the AAR, IronMike. Don't let that @#$@#@ Sam B, get your in way.

Have you recovered stragglers yet? If so how is that going?

Keith
Yes I tried at the 0530 turn and recovered two. I also tried at the 0600 turn and recovered one. It's a little difficult since we're playing regimental loss, but we are getting more efficient with every turn.
 
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Game Update

Sam and I played a couple of weeks ago and I have been out of town since, and he will be out of town this week. So the game has been a little inactive. However before I left we played the Union 0600 turn and the Confederate 0615 turn. I’m starting to feel a little like Lee as I can’t figure out what the Union is really doing right now, where and the heck is Stuart???? Originally I thought he would try to hold on to Culp’s Hill and instead they withdrew. This was probably a good decision on Sam’s part as I believe he would have risked the US 12th Corps if he hadn’t withdrawn. Then I thought he was re-constructing the Union line using the 12th and the 2nd as wings and using what was left of the 1st and the 11th Corps to establish a center through Lightner Hollow. But in the 0600 turn the 11th Corps is in deep withdraw moving south away from the front, and the 1st appears to be joining up with the 2nd Corps in the vicinity of Cemetery Ridge. The Union 5th Corps will be arriving soon so I need to figure this out.

On the Confederate turn it was mostly clearing out Lower Culp’s Hill by the CSA 2nd Corps against a brigade of the Union’s 12th Corps. While the 12th isn’t fully dislodged some good position was gained so I believe this will clear out soon. AP Hill is starting to take position to form the CSA left, as both the 1st and 2nd Corps solidify positions on Cemetery and Culp’s Hills respectively.

I look forward to renewing the engagement next week.
 
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Updated Action

We’ve now played through the CSA 6:45 turn. Union 12 Corps continues to hold the southern slope of Lower Culp’s Hill. Union 11th Corps has retreated to Power Hill, the Union 1st Corps has joined the 2nd in a defense of Cemetery Ridge and the flatland to the east of the ridge, the Union 3rd Corps is well deployed on Little Round Top, and Buford’s cavalry is screening the Union left at the Peach Orchard.

On the CSA side the 3rd Corps is essentially deployed and has control of Emmitsburg Road from Cemetery Hill to the Spangler home-site. The 2nd Corps is still moving into position on Upper Culp’s Hill with artillery placement being the focus. The 2nd continues to engage the Union 12th on Lower Culp’s Hill. The CSA 1st Corps is split as Hood’s division is on a Divisional Goal. Hood is now engaging in his 2nd major engagement of the morning as he is moving up the Baltimore Road and is facing the Union 1st. McLaw’s is holding Cemetery Hill with a lot of artillery placement going on.

I am finding that the roads around Gettysburg were very helpful in moving into position to attack Culp’s Hill and Cemetery Hill. Moving across or around Culp’s Hill without roads is a little tedious. Sam and I seem to be rolling an inordinate amount of “Low Ammos” the past two turns as well, so we are learning to re-supply. Straggler recovery is an interesting action, on the CSA 6:30 turn I had seven opportunities and made good on one. On his turn Sam had well over 30 opportunities and made good on two.

We play tomorrow night hopefully The South will continue the push.
 
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Update of CSA 7:45 Turn

It’s been an hour since the last update and a lot has happened. Early in the hour Hood (detached) pushed up the Baltimore Pike to clear it putting him in combat with remnants of the Union 1xst Corps, and the left wing of the Union 12th Corps. While Hood was making this attack the CSA 2nd Corps had come off Culp’s Hill (to some degree) and is pushing into the center and right wing of the Union 12th Corps moving them back into the McAllister’s Woods.

The dog Meade has just moved some of the Army Reserve Artillery into position on Sheep of Heaven, and Power’s and McAllister’s Hills. The artillery on Power’s Hill is supported by the remnants of the Union 11th Corps, and Hood is now making an attack on it. This is Hood’s 3rd major action of the morning so he is getting worn, and needs some relief. The other two aforementioned artillery positions are unsupported but I believe Sam is in the process of addressing this, possibly using hidden movement. Elsewhere, Longstreet’s 1st Corps has attacked Cemetery Ridge trying to convince Hancock’s 2nd Corps to retreat and at 7:30 Hancock so obliged. Unfortunately for the Reb’s, AP Hill’s 3rd Corps which had orders to attack Cemetery Ridge as well, is standing idly by, just like they did during the attack on Cemetery Hill.

Standing in the Union’s favor is the 5th Corps will be coming on soon, and will be in the rear of the Confederate forces. Sam has alluded to some hidden movement on the part off the US 3rd Corps, so they may be reinforcing the guns on Sheep of Heaven, and maybe on McAllister’s Hill, although it looks like the 12th will be following back as there are five bloodlust stacks on their front for the next turn. With the 5th coming on, and if the 3rd is moving it could be the axis of the line will switch from and east/west orientation to a north/south orientation. The Confederates should have Culp’s Hill, Cemetery Hill, Gettysburg, Cemetery Ridge, and perhaps Power’s Hill and maybe the Roundtops. It will be interesting to see how each army makes the swing and who gets caught in the middle.

Over-all I’m guessing the Union’s 1st, 11th, and 12th Corps are beyond function and will have limited roles for the rest of the game. The 2nd Corps will probably be in this same boat before 0900. This means the 3rd, 5th, and 6th Corps with the possible intervention of French’s and Naglee’s Division being the force that will have to carry the Union’s favor for the rest of the day. Additionally the strength of the Union’s artillery could be an overwhelming factor.

For the Confederates, while Hood is damaged his division still has some bite in it. McLaw’s has one regiment in bad shape outside of that his division is fully functional. The 3rd Corps is essentially untouched outside of the considerable damage done to them on the 1st of July. Anderson’s Division is in magnificent shape, but getting Hill to accept an order is a feat beyond Lee, in four hours of battle Hill has failed to engage the enemy with the two opportunities he has had. Jackson’s 2nd Corps is a mixed bag of tricks but has a lot of capability especially in defending high ground.

I leave it to Sam to post pictures or provide his own account of the battle.
 
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I Need Some Advisement on Rules/Play

I need some help, to ensure I’m playing the game correctly.

Situation:
I am playing the Confederates and Sam is playing the Union. During the 7:45 Union turn it was revealed that the Union 3rd Corps had accepted “hidden movement orders” at 6 AM, and the resulting movement took the 3rd Corps from Little Round Top to a position close to Brenner’s Heights on the east edge of the map.

Currently the CSA 2nd Corps under the command of Jackson (I used VP’s to form a variant scenario) has a complex order to take McAllister’s Hill, and is using the unimproved ground to the east of lower Culp’s Hill and going through McAllister’s Woods to reach objective. This is being accomplished by Johnson’s Division, and is being opposed by the Union’s 12th Corps.

Additionally, Hood’s Division from the CSA’s 1st Corps had a divisional goal to clear Baltimore Pike (3 hexes to each side) to McAllister’s homestead. Hood was also opposed by some Union 12th Corps regiments. With this goal having been accomplished Hood has accepted a 2nd divisional goal to take Power’s Hill and has moved along the Baltimore Pike , meeting continued resistance from the Union 12th Corps while doing so, and is now attacking Power’s Hill where the Union 11th Corps is providing the opposition.

As Hood is moving out of the way Early’s Division is moving up the Baltimore Pike to continue to press the attack through the 12th Corps and onto McAllister’s Hill (using Baltimore Pike as well as the unimproved ground that Johnson is using were in the issued order). However, Gordon’s Brigade of Early’s Division was assigned (and accepted) a brigade goal to defend Culp’s Hill. Culp’s Hill is also occupied by Rodes’ Division.

With the new threat posed by the Union’s 3rd Corps, Gordon and Rodes have taken defensive positions on and around Culp’s Hill, while Early and Johnson continue to carry-out the given order for the CSA’s 2nd Corps. What is being used to authorize the defense is command radius where Rodes, Johnson, and Early must maintain radius with Jackon’s HQ, which is in movement to McAllister’s Homestead. Gordon’s Brigade is using command radius from the divisional (brigade) goal HQ marker.

My level of understanding is that territory my troops have passed over or held zone of control over when moving is under my control and I no longer need a complex order to revisit it, nor do I need an order at all if I can use command radius properly.

My belief is as along as I can maintain command radius (since we’re not playing the Defensive Orders option), and not have my regiments move into ground not previously occupied by a CSA marker (would need a complex order), the defense of Culp’s Hill is legitimate.

Can you please advise me on my position, thanks.
 

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Hopefully this will help some, if I understand the situation correctly.

When not using defensive orders, orders that just for movement and defend are commonly accepted as simple orders.

Two brigades from two different divisions sharing the same orders though, side by side is specifically mentioned in the rulebook. Or maybe it is intermixing regiments in the line. But if one of them is under Jackson's orders of attack, I would think it would need divisional or brigade orders to defend.

I have to admit I do not think I have a complete grasp of the situation you are describing.

Keith
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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Without pulling the maps (which I'll try to do later), I'll note a couple of things:
1. you really want to choke Stuart right about now, dont'cha? ;)
2. Gordon, having orders, is fine...but for the fact of facing an angry corps of Federals...
3. Rodes, however, is on shaky ground. While his corps is under attack orders, it is up to you how to delegate the units under that command to that attack. You don't, for example, have to bang all three divisions into a frontal assault. In fact, your leaving him in a reserve position is wise, especially in light of current events. If you find yourself weighing whether you could do without him upfront, you already have your answer.

Where the issue will get cloudy is when or if Early and/or Johnson get mauled in their attacks, or if they successfully complete their orders. That notwithstanding, you do, at any rate, have a Union corps in (I'm assuming for the moment) either your rear or flank.

Is this tolerable?

You have reached one of those deliciously painful moments that make the CWB so excruciatingly enjoyable (even if Sam might be enjoying it a bit more right now!): do you continue the attack and hope for the best or turn and face a new and unexpected threat elsewhere?

While technically, Rodes could stay put (without the use of the option of defensive orders), you would be straining the intent of the rules by both attacking and defending a position to the rear-which could have been done, by the by, in the original attack order. Certainly, Rodes can defend himself, but I would make a couple of humble, uninformed suggestions:

1. have Rodes attempt initiative to defend Culp's Hill
2. Have Jackson attempt initiative to order Rodes defend Culp's Hill
3. Have Jackson declare an ECR withdrawing to a position which will include Culp's Hill. This requires you to (re-)evaluate the value of his current orders within the context of the battle extant and your plans, overall.
4. Continue 2 Corps attack, leaving Rodes behind and hope that he isn't destroyed or needed by Jackson forward. If the attack of 2 Corps IS successful, the entire 2 Corps will be stuck in place until they receive new orders; would that potential deployment be palatable?

Remember, the orders system is intended to minimise omniscience; just because you see those blue counters, doesn't mean you can-or should-be able to react to them unilaterally as you'd like. If you think you need orders to do something, you usually do; if you're trying to stretch the rules (generally speaking here, not implying that's what you're doing) to protect yourself, it, too, is usually a sign you should issue orders/attempt initiative.

Ultimately, Rodes probably could stay, but efforts to clarify his situation needs be made.

Enjoy! Sounds like you guys are having a good one!
 
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'Ol Fezziwig

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1. have Rodes attempt initiative to defend Culp's Hill

2. Have Jackson attempt initiative to order Rodes defend Culp's Hill

3. Have Jackson declare an ECR withdrawing to a position which will include Culp's Hill. This requires you to (re-)evaluate the value of his current orders within the context of the battle extant and your plans, overall.

4. Continue 2 Corps attack, leaving Rodes behind and hope that he isn't destroyed or needed by Jackson forward. If the attack of 2 Corps IS successful, the entire 2 Corps will be stuck in place until they receive new orders; would that potential deployment be palatable?
yeah, I realise quoting yourself is tres' gauche, but...

I think, after having pulled the maps (ouch!, by the way!), that option #4 is actually the least viable in terms of what the rules appear to intend. Having reread CWB 10.1g, which I poorly paraphrased in my last post, I think the first three options are the only viable ones.

In effect, Jackson has a decision point; continue his assault, ignoring the threat in his rear (doable, perhaps, if there are other units back there) or deal with it himself. Either way, I'd think the seriousness of the situation would require him to do one or the other, not both. This lies along the fuzzy grey area, where, sure, command range is being followed, but is your original order's intent?

You might be able to buy a turn or two by placing Gordon between the Federals and Rodes to buy some time for new orders/initiative to kick in, but risk seeing him mauled in the process. Of course, 'Ol Jack might have other, more offensive ideas in mind...

ps: this would be a nice situation to see a few pics of (hint,hint!)
 
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