The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom (do not create new DRM threads below)

Dr Zaius

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Hey, credit where credit is due. I reserve the right to tell Saddletank that he is the spineless jackass he is.
You're just a ray of liquid sunshine today.
 

TBR

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

You're just a ray of liquid sunshine today.
Which is illuminating the reason why the actvity on the SES forum, which to me seemed DOA for the first few weeks, is now picking up as the veterans of this subforum are registering over there.

To bring this thread on track and topic:

As to the subject of DRM, I'm one of the guys who doesn't buy into the whole "Lost Sales" argument. The DRM wars have been fought mostly to a close in music, where DRM has lost, the current battlefield is e-books.
DRM is not a tool against piracy or to protect copyright in most applications, that's just the excuse for the "walls of the garden" into which the big media corporations want to lock in their customers. It seems just some "strategic" game of megacorps, where "DRM" is the tool used to stake out "customer claims". Kindle and ibook are cases in point. If you look at Baen's webscriptions you'll see how a small company with a unique offering and dedicated customer base (like SES) can be very successful explicitly by renouncing all forms of DRM and trying to avoid any lock-in. Webscriptions, ebooks without any DRM and provided in all common and some uncommon formats, has now been commercially successful for twelve years, with no perceivable "loss" to piracy. I think SES should go that way themselves and not buy into the propaganda some corporate execs sprout to obfuscate their real strategy.

That was more than just two cents on DRM by me. Take this as a peace offering as I have written this in some form here earlier. If you want to engage in discussion, fine, if you persist in your prior behaviour I'll ignore this thread.
 

thewood

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

I wouldn't say its picking up too much over there. Just a quick skim shows maybe a dozen or so active posters and less than 40 actually posted in the "First Post" thread. Not very promising for a company that claimed 1000's of units sold.
 

KG_Jag

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Mods should not trash their own forums and any "human posters" on them while on an official gaming house site.
 

saddletank

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

*chuckle*

I'm not a mod over there, just a satisfied customer. I'm also entitled to my own opinion anywhere I go on the internet, thank you very much.

Are you going to talk about DRM here or not? Or is this thread now just your scratching post?

Has there even been a single post about DRM since Don set this sticky up for you all?

Oh, yes. One. One single post in five pages of childish mud-slinging. It's pathetic.
 
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KG_Jag

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

*chuckle*

I'm not a mod over there, just a satisfied customer. I'm also entitled to my own opinion anywhere I go on the internet, thank you very much.

Are you going to talk about DRM here or not? Or is this thread now just your scratching post?

Has there even been a single post about DRM since Don set this sticky up for you all?

Oh, yes. One. One single post in five pages of childish mud-slinging. It's pathetic.
You are a mod (not just a member) here and here is what you posted there:

"Not sure what good it will do posting on the GS forum anymore, I think most 'human' posters have quit there."

While you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not to being a mod on a forum where you trash the posters. Whether or not those in control agree with me and what, if anything, they do about it is up to them. By the way--and as I am sure you will agree--all of us are entitled to our opinions about DRM, in all its flavors and with regard to all to which it is attached.

My comment about DRM, and especially the type(s) that have/are used by SES have, along with their own special style of customer relations, have stopped me from buying any of their games. Up until that point, I had bought every game that Norm Koger had ever released.

Also of interest is a new poll and discussion at Wargamer that pertains both to customer relations and DRM. You will recall that a few years or so ago they did a poll on the effect of DRM on wargame purchases, which was also cited and discussed on these boards but somehow not included in this thread. The new poll/discussion is here:

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=534234&mpage=1#534765
 
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saddletank

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

You are a mod (not just a member) here and here is what you posted there:

"Not sure what good it will do posting on the GS forum anymore, I think most 'human' posters have quit there."

While you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not to being a mod on a forum where you trash the posters.
We must disagree on that. I'm entitled to say anything I want in any place I want as long as it does not break forum rules. Just because some nasty people wrecked a perfectly good discussion forum doesn't mean I can't state my views on that regardless of my status on the wrecked forum. Heck, come on, I've said things against this site for heaven's sake.

What I wrote on the SES forum is true and I stand by it. The person received help over there but none here. Why am I not surprised at that?

If you're going to trawl the internet and pick up every comment I write on every forum I visit, and report it back here... well... firstly I'm flattered; but more importantly it speaks more about you than it does about me. It is a little, well, sad is the most polite term I can think of.

It is conversations like this one which have killed this forum. People slinging mud at other people when they should focus on the subject the forum is for. Whether that's pro- points or against- points does not matter - as long as you put your views in a constructive adult way.

You keep up conversations like this and this dead forum will just carry on obstinately being dead.

Sometimes I'm tempted to go back over the last 5 or 6 pages since Don announced he was stickying this subject for you all and delete all the trash here so that just the DRM discussion remains, as both Don and I asked you to, but on the other hand the more bile and vitriol that is left here, the fewer people will feel its a thread worth contributing too. You're banging the nails in the coffin nicely there, you just carry on with that hammer.
 

Pdqport

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Which is illuminating the reason why the actvity on the SES forum, which to me seemed DOA for the first few weeks, is now picking up as the veterans of this subforum are registering over there.

To bring this thread on track and topic:

As to the subject of DRM, I'm one of the guys who doesn't buy into the whole "Lost Sales" argument. The DRM wars have been fought mostly to a close in music, where DRM has lost, the current battlefield is e-books.
DRM is not a tool against piracy or to protect copyright in most applications, that's just the excuse for the "walls of the garden" into which the big media corporations want to lock in their customers. It seems just some "strategic" game of megacorps, where "DRM" is the tool used to stake out "customer claims". Kindle and ibook are cases in point. If you look at Baen's webscriptions you'll see how a small company with a unique offering and dedicated customer base (like SES) can be very successful explicitly by renouncing all forms of DRM and trying to avoid any lock-in. Webscriptions, ebooks without any DRM and provided in all common and some uncommon formats, has now been commercially successful for twelve years, with no perceivable "loss" to piracy. I think SES should go that way themselves and not buy into the propaganda some corporate execs sprout to obfuscate their real strategy.

That was more than just two cents on DRM by me. Take this as a peace offering as I have written this in some form here earlier. If you want to engage in discussion, fine, if you persist in your prior behaviour I'll ignore this thread.
There are plenty of ways for niche producers to handle DRM without alienating a large portion of their customer base. Matrix seems to just fine with a serial activation system. Yes you can find their games on pirate sites, but I think they realize that their target audience simply isn't going to bother with pirated copies of their games.

Given the amount of resources that SES has to put into developing and troubleshooting its DRM system, it's hard to imagine that it is really saving them anything in the long run. How many lost sales would their have been to piracy for such niche products? Would those lost sales have come close to equally the sales they have lost from the heavy-handed DRM? Unlikely.
 

Pdqport

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

We must disagree on that. I'm entitled to say anything I want in any place I want as long as it does not break forum rules. Just because some nasty people wrecked a perfectly good discussion forum doesn't mean I can't state my views on that regardless of my status on the wrecked forum. Heck, come on, I've said things against this site for heaven's sake.

What I wrote on the SES forum is true and I stand by it. The person received help over there but none here. Why am I not surprised at that?

If you're going to trawl the internet and pick up every comment I write on every forum I visit, and report it back here... well... firstly I'm flattered; but more importantly it speaks more about you than it does about me. It is a little, well, sad is the most polite term I can think of.

It is conversations like this one which have killed this forum. People slinging mud at other people when they should focus on the subject the forum is for. Whether that's pro- points or against- points does not matter - as long as you put your views in a constructive adult way.

You keep up conversations like this and this dead forum will just carry on obstinately being dead.

Sometimes I'm tempted to go back over the last 5 or 6 pages since Don announced he was stickying this subject for you all and delete all the trash here so that just the DRM discussion remains, as both Don and I asked you to, but on the other hand the more bile and vitriol that is left here, the fewer people will feel its a thread worth contributing too. You're banging the nails in the coffin nicely there, you just carry on with that hammer.
Saddletank, if this forum is so dead, then why do you continue on as a mod? Is so that you can continue to act as a watchdog for SES?
 

KG_Jag

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Here's a link to the "DRM & Buying Habits - A show of hands?" posted at the Wargamer in mid-December 2008:

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=323475&high=DRM+poll

With over 100 wargamers participating, it is the largest response to the issue of which I know. Here are the results:

I avoid products, developers, and publishers with invasive DRM schemes.
68% (75)

The whole issue of DRM is completely irrelevant to my purchasing habits.
16% (18)

I am still on the fence about this whole matter of DRM.
14% (16)

Total Votes: 109


If anyone has something more definitive from the wargaming and/or warsim communities, please post it.
 
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Michael Dorosh

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

*chuckle*

I'm not a mod over there, just a satisfied customer. I'm also entitled to my own opinion anywhere I go on the internet, thank you very much.

Are you going to talk about DRM here or not? Or is this thread now just your scratching post?

Has there even been a single post about DRM since Don set this sticky up for you all?

Oh, yes. One. One single post in five pages of childish mud-slinging. It's pathetic.
I count at least two posts re: DRM in the page before you posted this. I had rather thought that the attempts of a few of us to bring the level of discussion back to an even kilter would have been appreciated by you. Apparently not.
 

KG_Jag

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Another poll posted in March 2010 at the Wargamer involving almost 100 warsimers concerning a naval game from a major gaming house with a "similar" DRM ["Ubisoft's new policies"] to that used by SES:

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=413797&high=DRM+poll

Silent Hunter V - Who is still getting it?

I am going to buy it on release. 6% (6)

I will wait until it is cheaper or on sale. 6% (6)

I will buy it after it has been patched a few times. 4% (4)

I was going to buy it, but not with Ubisoft's new polices.
63% (58)

I was going to buy it but other games released at the same time. 2% (2)

I never inteded [sic] to buy Silent Hunter V. 14% (13)

Subs? You mean hoagies? 3% (3)

Total Votes: 92
 

iamakka

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

The problem with the polls you are quoting is endemic to most forum or internet polls - such polls are usually self selecting, those who have no strong opinions on the subject don't bother with them, thus leaving you with a heavily unrepresentative outcome.

I am yet to run into software DRM that would deter me from playing a game I wanted to, I would not have bothered to vote in such a poll, and I'm only involved in this thread due to the somewhat overenthusiastic nature of the debate that has occurred on this forum previously.

I'm not doubting there is a vocal and possibly sizable minority dead set against DRM in all forms, but I'm far from convinced I'm in the minority with my own "Meh, whatever" attitude towards it.

Never underestimate the extent of apathy ;)
 

VaDingo

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Don't go PC on us, substiture Maturity for Apathy and I think you're spot on! :smoke:

The problem with the polls you are quoting is endemic to most forum or internet polls - such polls are usually self selecting, those who have no strong opinions on the subject don't bother with them, thus leaving you with a heavily unrepresentative outcome.

I am yet to run into software DRM that would deter me from playing a game I wanted to, I would not have bothered to vote in such a poll, and I'm only involved in this thread due to the somewhat overenthusiastic nature of the debate that has occurred on this forum previously.

I'm not doubting there is a vocal and possibly sizable minority dead set against DRM in all forms, but I'm far from convinced I'm in the minority with my own "Meh, whatever" attitude towards it.

Never underestimate the extent of apathy ;)
 

VaDingo

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Make that "Substitute" and I'll be "Spot On".
 

KG_Jag

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

The problem with the polls you are quoting is endemic to most forum or internet polls - such polls are usually self selecting, those who have no strong opinions on the subject don't bother with them, thus leaving you with a heavily unrepresentative outcome.

I am yet to run into software DRM that would deter me from playing a game I wanted to, I would not have bothered to vote in such a poll, and I'm only involved in this thread due to the somewhat overenthusiastic nature of the debate that has occurred on this forum previously.

I'm not doubting there is a vocal and possibly sizable minority dead set against DRM in all forms, but I'm far from convinced I'm in the minority with my own "Meh, whatever" attitude towards it.

Never underestimate the extent of apathy ;)
Are these polls perfect? No. Do you have anything better or any objective evidence to support your doubts in the current context? If so, share it with us.

Of course, sales numbers from SES would be helpful. We already know that Silent Hunter 5 was a dismal failure and is currently sold on Amazon for $4.60 a copy.
 

TBR

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Are these polls perfect? No. Do you have anything better or any objective evidence to support your doubts in the current context? If so, share it with us.

Of course, sales numbers from SES would be helpful. We already know that Silent Hunter 5 was a dismal failure and is currently sold on Amazon for $4.60 a copy.
And I'm still not getting it and HAWX 2 until their "always connected" DRM is scrapped.
 

saddletank

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Saddletank, if this forum is so dead, then why do you continue on as a mod? Is so that you can continue to act as a watchdog for SES?
I don't continue on at all. This place is dead now thanks to the anti-DRMers. I've moved on. Bye.
 

saddletank

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

In the case if this forum, sadly, that's true.
 
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