Question of Leader on Top for Fire resolution

macrobo

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Hi All

I believe but again struggling to find the rule - that when a stack resolves a random selection - the leader should be placed on top for that roll - am I imagining such a rule? - is it an old rule that was removed?

Thank you for your help in advance

Cheers

Rob :)
 

Honosbinda

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It's sort of a gamey but legal trick to hide your leaders under other stuff since, when playing the actual game (not VASL), stacks that are out of LOS cannot be inspected to see what they contain, even if unconcealed (A12.16). Leaders are otherwise easily (too easily) identified on the map all the time.

However, in VASL, sometimes it's a courtesy to place the leaders on top so that the enemy player doesn't have to inspect all stacks he does have LOS to (and it's easy to forget A12.16 since the enemy player can't actually see someone inspecting his stacks in VASL -- and the enemy may inadvertently inspect a stack he's not allowed to actually inspect anyway)

regardless, the random selection rule doesn't require repositioning leaders to the top.

A,9 suggests that random selection can be expedited by any sort of house rule. Most people play 'top-to bottom; since that's intuitive. I guess if you and your fellow players want to agree to moving the leaders to the top first, you could do that, but it's not mandatory.
 

Nearmiss

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However, in VASL, sometimes it's a courtesy to place the leaders on top so that the enemy player doesn't have to inspect all stacks he does have LOS to (and it's easy to forget A12.16 since the enemy player can't actually see someone inspecting his stacks in VASL -- and the enemy may inadvertently inspect a stack he's not allowed to actually inspect anyway)
When playing on VASL, we cover all friendly stacks of units that are free of enemy inspection with an HIP concealment counter, except for the top unit. The result being the opponent will see the proper number of units in the stack but can only identify the top unit.
 

Juan SantaX

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When playing on VASL, we cover all friendly stacks of units that are free of enemy inspection with an HIP concealment counter, except for the top unit. The result being the opponent will see the proper number of units in the stack but can only identify the top unit.
At the begining of the game before the start, or during the game itself? It looks not very easy to play that way...
 

Nearmiss

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Typically but not necessarily, prior to the first Rally Phase.
 

von Marwitz

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At the begining of the game before the start, or during the game itself? It looks not very easy to play that way...
I'd say when setting up a game and before the opponent makes his offensive setup, this method makes perfect sense.
I use it as standard operating procedure.

Later in the game it becomes less important since there are usually very few units that are safely out of LOS and unconcealed (i.e. no right of inspection), that would not grow Concealment or not be remebered by the opponent anyway.

von Marwitz
 

Juan SantaX

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Thats ok. But the real problem is during play. And I think VASL don’t have a proper tool yet to fix that.

I play that before the start, but during play there are sometimes stacks out of LOS without concealement. Because I dont play ftf, I cant tell how important that could be
 

Nearmiss

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Later in the game it becomes less important since there are usually very few units that are safely out of LOS and unconcealed (i.e. no right of inspection), that would not grow Concealment or not be remebered by the opponent anyway.
My take, as well.
 

von Marwitz

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Thats ok. But the real problem is during play. And I think VASL don’t have a proper tool yet to fix that.
There is an option in the preferences to deactivate 'Disable automatic stack display', so VASL can handle preventing accidental stack inspection.

14262

But, of course, checking this option makes it cumbersome in all other situations beside that which you describe.

Yet, as aforementioned, during the game, I do not see a sigificant problem.

Normally, the only situation where you will have unconcealed stacks during the game which may not be inspected are those that just moved out of LOS (mostly from the frontline to prepare for growing concealment). Usually, your opponent should remember, what he could just see (and inspect) what has just pulled back.

von Marwitz
 

Honosbinda

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Thats ok. But the real problem is during play. And I think VASL don’t have a proper tool yet to fix that.

I play that before the start, but during play there are sometimes stacks out of LOS without concealement. Because I dont play ftf, I cant tell how important that could be
Agree. I suppose an algorithm could be created that takes care of this automatically, but it would probably slow down the module significantly to have to recalculate all those LOSs. It's probably not workable.

It does make a difference in FtF, for sure. It's impossible to be going around poking into enemy stacks out of LOS with them sitting right across from you. In VASL, it's about the honor system as we rely on others not to peek when they shouldn't be ;)
 

EagleIV

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In CC the leader has to be on top of the unit it is attacking and defending with, but not at other times.
 

Juan SantaX

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Agree. I suppose an algorithm could be created that takes care of this automatically, but it would probably slow down the module significantly to have to recalculate all those LOSs. It's probably not workable.

It does make a difference in FtF, for sure. It's impossible to be going around poking into enemy stacks out of LOS with them sitting right across from you. In VASL, it's about the honor system as we rely on others not to peek when they shouldn't be ;)
Not only honor... Sometimes you do stupid things with the mouse without malice, and almost impossible to do so ftf... Sometimes I think my mouse has his own will, as a Lord of the Rings sword...
 
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Eagle4ty

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We've had this discussion a while back about leader placement in a stack, it's a courtesy thing. In a FtF game with the units in a stack unconcealed and in LOS, it just speeds play along. If I don't see a leader on the top of a stack, I'll ask what's in the stack and ask to point it out (i.e. show me). It usually just slows the game down as he rifles through the stack to show me what's there.
 
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