Peninsular War

[lecrop]

OOhhh, the banana playing drums icon! :hail:

 

[trauth116]

Well, yes bagpipes would be better, but they might not have been able to pass that one by the rating board. :laugh:

 

[Marshal Lannes]

:whist::hurray:

 

[Xaver]

Well, long time out of this... but i hear that is possible see a nap title this month and maybe is time to return hehehe, i think is or Leipzig or something in Italy because all here know that if they release it world ends MUHAHAHA dont read something official but you know how works this.

Ummm variants and other what if is allways a good option, the type of battles (medium size) is great for this, add an extra division on french army in Salamanca to reinforce french deployment and similar things increase the funny time and if they release peninsular war as a trilogi maybe can add as bonus company level scens, play battle episodes is great, 2-3 per battle at divisional level.

Now fanservice for all :bandrum::devil::vegguitar:

 

[Nikel]

"Safe man" - yes, and when your allies rout at the sound of their own volley, it tends to mean you end up defending on your own. Or so it happened.

What can I say, the glory of the spanish infantry was long gone :crosseye:

According to Oman the panicking were Leales de Fernando VII, Badajoz and Toledo regiments.

25-30 of the fugitives were shot the morning of the 29th after the battle, Cuesta wanted to kill 200, but the british commanders apparently interceded.


This spanish link has some nice pics and maps for those interested in Talavera

http://www.eborense.es/batalla_talavera1809_indice.html

 

[Marshal Lannes]

I think that Cuesta should have been shot by Wellesley for refusing to cover the passes of Plasencia. I guess aristo privilege and dishonour did not apply to the rank and file.A Britsh officer would have been court-martialled for the same deed. Not really sure if Cuesta was popular amongst the Spanish infantry.
The French were very poor at reconnaisance in the 1809 Campaign and Napoleon was rightfully horrified at the level of poor intelligence gained during the 1809 Campaign. Ghost corps were always being reported ; the french even diverted Victor back from theTagus when only 4000 portuguese and Brits were spotted west of Madrid, and were believed to be wellesley's main army.

I am wondering if the finances and training were up to scratch for the Spanish army, whether , they would still be let down by poor leadership- something that the French in the Peninsular became infected with as their numbers and training should have won through. At least Wellington went out of his way to have a great deal of intelligence from spies etc, although some errors were made, especially in the 1809 Campaign , where he should have been easily surrounded and obliterated.
Yep- I want to rewrite History to make up for obvious incompetence on all sides- armchair general criticism is always easy, and that is why it is done.

Welcome back Xaver- No news on the Peninsular Wargame-I think Xmas looks likely. Do not forget to download the FREE- Company Level Mius game. Get it at the Scenario Design Center. :yummy:

 

[Xaver]

Thanks but dont worry, i download it but i am now more interested on Afrika end hehehe.

Naaa i dont expect see Peninsular on this month (or first title covering 1813-1814 campaigns or a compilation of Italy campaigns+extras like Egipt fight) and even on this year... i think that peninsular games are to napoleonic series as Berlin45 to PzC

Change history... save bottle Pepe, save Spain of Fernando VII :clown:

 

[trauth116]

This month?! Well all that means is more work for me. And more stuff on the backburner.

Well forget about that, aside from the fact that I haven't even had a chance to sit down and actually get even mediocre at the series. . . (which includes NB titles that I have had for years). . . I got people wanting maps (which includes me- but some of them are huge).

Yeah well forget that- I just picked up a couple of months old copy of Wargames Illustrated, and they hada brief interview (it is basically a marketting tool for Osprey, Flames of War and some other stuff)... with the author of a (I guess new) hardbound Atlas of the Peninsular War -which I just put on the list, for when I dig out a book or 2 that I have on the war.

I have my eye on the MMP version of Talavera (since I have the other titles in the old Gamer's Napoleonic Brigade Series)... might maybe as well. Saw some sort of idea by Kevin Zucker over on Consimworld (I will have to remember to dig up the link), where he was talking about doing some games by year on the Iberian Peninsula -and had an image posted for his playtest map which included the entire peninsula. Not sure of the scale, but it looked like it was a few of your standard 22 x 34 inch maps -which that alone gets me interested...

And, ok, after watching through 8 of the Sharpe's TV programmes, I do like the books better -but the TV shows were ok as well--- impossible to do large scale Napoleonic battles in a TV budget, but having watched Waterloo (I have a better idea of the scope anyways...). . . it does put a face to some characters, and ... well, yeah, they both are good- and got me interested in this period.

___

Ok, well I don't go out and scout for info on the boards; if it happens, it is usually by accident. I can tell you that if you pay attention to who is talking you can get an idea, probably, of whose project it is.

___

On another note, I sort of think I "hate" NM releases, but only from the point of view of coming up with banner material. I suppose if I can find some paintings (in the public domain... mind you) for something from a title -I might whip something up, but I think maybe if I can find a profile image for the French musket from the time, or even come to think of it - a sword, preferably a cavalry sabre ... I might be able to whip up something similar to the one I did for FIW. I have had some good success finding period (or out of copyright at least) maps... well, forget about that ... I suppose I need to have a look at some existing maps and get a head start on a big project.

 

[Marshal Lannes]

As Napoleon was busy recconoitring the Spanish positions near the pass, cannonballs crashed to earth near the Emperor and his staff. The enemy fire angered rather than frightened him, since he could not believe Ruffin's infantry was being held in check by Spanish troops, which he believed to be far inferior to his own. Growing increasingly frustrated, he ordered general Hippolyte Pire to provide cavalry support for the attack. The French horsemen rode forward into the fight, but the combination of constrictive terrain and heavy enemy fire conspired to drive them backwards. At length, an exasperated Pire rode back to Napoleon and told him it was impossible to force the pass.

An already simmering Napoleon flew into a rage at this news. He slapped his riding crop against his boot and exclaimed, “ Impossible ! I do not know the meaning of the word” He then turned to Colonel Jan Kozietulski, commander of his polish escort squadron. The emperor pointed towards the pass and ordered. “ Take that pass at the gallop “..
In all likelihood, Napoleon was only referring to the first Spanish gun emplacement, which had brought his staff under fire and was the only emplacement that he could see in the fog and smoke of battle. In reality, the Spanish positions consisted of three successive gun emplacements spaced along the road, with supporting infantry units, crowned by a fort mounting a total of 10 guns at the summit.

The Charge Begins - Although the exact meaning of the order was unclear, Col Kozietulski made no attempt to clarify his instructions. Instead, he saluted Napoleon, then galloped to the front of his command and addressed the men. French officers overheard the exchange and thought the order, madness; a single cavalry squadron to attack what an infantry division has failed to move. Yet in front of their incredulous eyes, the poles arranged themselves into columns of four, in order to climb the narrow road they had to use, and prepare for battle. Impetuously, a number of French officers joined the Polish horsemen, as did another platoon of Polish horsemen who had just returned from a reconnaisance mission.
Officers shouted commands for the rest of the Polish regiments as well as other French cavalry units to deploy forward to back up the attack, but Kozietulski did not await this support. Instead, he placed himself at the head of his small command and shouted to his men, “ Forward, you sons of dogs, the Emperor is watching”. a great cheer of, “Vive L" Empereur “ ! swept through the ranks, and the Polish horsemen drew their sabres, then dug spurs into the flanks of their horses as the squadron surged forward.
A hail of musketry and cannon fire greeted the cavalry's approach. Horses and riders were sent tumbling, but onwards they came. As they wound their way up the hill, their horses laboured to increase their speed on the steep slope. Astonished Spanish gunners hurriedly shifted their pieces to place fire on this new threat as the cavalry swept past Ruffin's incredulous infantrymen.
Grapeshot whizzed through the air from the three Spanish 2-gun batteries on the road, and saddles were emptied, but the charge went forward. The poles hacked to left and right with their sabres and in a rush, overran the first battery giving no quarter and expecting none in return.

Beyond the Call of Duty - Although they had already fulfilled the mission set out for them by Napoleon, the cavalry did not halt. Instead, they continued their climb up the pass. Musketry exploded into them from either side of the road from supporting Spanish infantry and more horsemen fell. The second battery now came into view and the poles roared through it at full gallop, scattering gunners and infantry before them as they plunged deeper into the Spanish positions. As , at last they reached the crest of the pass, the ground levelled and the poles urged their frothing mounts into a thundering gallop that exploded into the final Spanish battery. The surprised gunners were cut down where they stood, but with their horses blown and over half their number down, the Polish squadron collapsed in a heap, still short of their final objective.

Their charge, however had unhinged the Spanish defensive positions. With all eyes fixed on the Poles, General Ruffin's infantry were at last able to move forward and they came on at the trot with bayonets fixed. Then, from the rear, the blare of bugles resounded as the remainder of the Polish regiment and a French cavalry regiment came roaring up the road . Together , with the infantry, they struck the final Spanish defensive position at the summit like a thunderbolt and blew through the last line of resistance to make themselves masters of the pass of Somossierra. As the remnants of the Spanish force clambered for safety across the hills and melted away as an effective fighting force, the battle was won and the road to Madrid lay open.
Slaughter in the Pass - Napoleon had observed the attack through his spyglass and as he saw the French columns mount the summit of the pass, he snapped his telescope shut and gave the order for a general advance. He then spurred his horse forward, as aides and cavalry rushed to keep up with him. He galloped up the winding road, noting the twisted bodies of men and horses, some still struggling for life, which lay strewn about.

Among the first of the Imperial headquarters staff to arrive at the pass was Berthier. A dying Polish officer lying on the ground raised himself on an elbow and pointing to the captured batteries, gasped out, “We have taken the guns, tell the Emperor”. At length. Napoleon himself had reached the pass. Amidst the debris of the third Spanish battery, the apex of the poles wild charge, Napoleon found Lt Andrew Niegolowski, who had been wounded 11 times in the course of the charge, sitting on the ground, barely conscious, propped against one of the captured guns. The Emperor called for a surgeon and then dismounted. He knelt before Niegolowski, clasped his hand, and thanked him for the courage he had shown that day. He then removed the Legion D' Honneur from his own breast and pinned it to Niegolowski's chest. the Emperor stood and in a loud voice, proclaimed that the poles were the bravest cavalry in his army .As the survivor's reformed and moved to the rear, they passed the serried bearskins of Napoleon's Imperial Guard. Under orders from the Emperor, the Guardsmen moving with their customary machine-like precision, presented arms as the shattered remnants of the Polish regiment passed.

In his officer report, Napoleon gave full credit for the victory to the Polish horsemen. In recognition of their courage, he later awarded the Legion D' Honneur to 17 poles who had taken part in the charge.

And thus it was , that " the Cid " rode through the gates of Valencia and on into the pages of history... the bravest knight of them all............. :hail:

And thus it was, that a single Polish cavalry squadron rode through the pass at Somosierra and on into the pages of history...........brave knights , one and all.......... :hail:

 

[Nikel]

Yeah well forget that- I just picked up a couple of months old copy of Wargames Illustrated, and they hada brief interview (it is basically a marketting tool for Osprey, Flames of War and some other stuff)... with the author of a (I guess new) hardbound Atlas of the Peninsular War -which I just put on the list, for when I dig out a book or 2 that I have on the war.

This one we commented above?

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/blog/hidden_gems_the_peninsular_war_atlas/

http://www.napoleon-series.org/reviews/military/c_PeninsularAtlases.html

I have my eye on the MMP version of Talavera (since I have the other titles in the old Gamer's Napoleonic Brigade Series)... might maybe as well. Saw some sort of idea by Kevin Zucker over on Consimworld (I will have to remember to dig up the link), where he was talking about doing some games by year on the Iberian Peninsula -and had an image posted for his playtest map which included the entire peninsula. Not sure of the scale, but it looked like it was a few of your standard 22 x 34 inch maps -which that alone gets me interested...

Highway to Madrid sketch map, must be this:

http://www.napoleongames.com/images/...0Peninsula.pdf

I wonder if Rahamy and Sgt. Rock will develop different scale napoleonic wargames?

What about a strategic PW game? :crosseye: A map like the one above but of course bigger and more detailed :yummy:

JT engine can handle this kind of game?


Well, they do not like to comment more or less imminent games, but perhaps can comment distant games? Rahamy?

 

[Nikel]

Other excellent Somosierra paintings by Kossak are availabe in this link

http://www.pinakoteka.zascianek.pl/Kossak_W/Kossak_W_2.htm

Before the cavalry charge there was some infantry action represented in this paintings. Ruffin's division of Victor corps, 24 and 96 ligne and 9 leger infantry regiments.

 

[Marshal Lannes]

Yep -the guy has an interesting painting style , no doubt influenced by the parisian painters of the time.

The Spanish troops at Somosierra were led by Don Benito San Juan. He served as a Lieutenant-Colonel of Hussars of Estremadura during the War of the Oranges. In 1805 San Juan was promoted to the rank of mariscal (in fact a general's grade), and became the General Inspector of Infantry and Cavalry. In 1808 Benito de San Juan assumed the command over the major part of the Spanish forces defending Madrid. Knowing the weakness of his corps, much inferior to the French army, he prepared a plan of indirect defence of the Spanish capital by defending the narrow Somosierra pass on the road leading towards it.

The Spaniards prepared their positions well.
At Cereze de Abajo was their advance post: 200 mounted Madrid volunteers and few hundreds of militia.

Spanish strength and positions in the pass.

Six guns were placed on the road, forming three batteries of two guns each.
The first battery of 2 4pdr guns stood behind a stone bridge.
The gunners were protected from infantry fire by a small earthwork.
In front of the bridge and across the road was a ditch (an obstacle for cavalry and artillery).
Approx. 700 m behind the first battery stood the second battery.
Approx. 1,000 militia took positions on both sides of the highway.
In reserve, on the summit stood 2,000 militia and 10 guns.

The regular infantry was deployed on the road between Somosierra and Madrid.

It is interesting to see Napoleon taking an interest and displaying a degree of humanity, can i use that word for Napoleon; probably, just in non-political correctness mode. Although Wellington is credited with weeping at the sight of his wounded and dying troops, Ii think that Napoleon displayed an easier camaraderie and affectation for his soldiers. My personal favourite episode was when he was inspecting the fortifications on the Channel Coast, he came across some men who were working very hard w in the sunith repairing a bridge and asked who they were, to be told that they were captured Englishmen.; Napoleon was so impressed with their enthusiasm and diligence, that he ordered their immediate release and to be given a few sous and transportation to England or a neutral port. Napoleon being a tireles worker himself, always responded to endeavour, whether it was his own, french or the enemy. I have not come across such behaviour in Wellington towards the rank and file of his own, or the enemies.
As a funny aside, there is one episode that i remember reading in his life which was a desparate attempt by the author, who I think was Elizabeth Longford to portray Welly as a human at heart. Apparently, he was walking near his estate when he came across a small boy crying on the road and when asking about his woe, the little boy said that he was sad that he had to leave his pet frog behind as his parents were paying to send him away to school, and he could not take his pet frog. Welly ,apparently comforted him and offered to take the frog and look after it. Aaaaah Sweet ! That is if you look deper at the episode and see that the little boy was on a country estate and his parents obvioously had the money to send him to school. He was definitely not a pre-victorian filthy street- urchin,living on a country estate, in which case, Unky Welly would have booted him up the butt and told him to return to his scum-holding where he belongs..... Wellington is no Napoleon, in many areas, and therein lies the difference. !

 

[trauth116]

the other difference being that Arthur Wellesley never lost a battle to Napoleon.

<s>

 

[Marshal Lannes]

Hopefully, there will be a scenario in the Peninsular War Campaign game that allows the mythical battle between Wellesley and Napoleon alone to take place , and then, the truth will out............

 

[Nikel]

the other difference being that Arthur Wellesley never lost a battle to Napoleon.

<s>

W only failure probably was the siege of Burgos in 1812, and of course Nappy was not there By that time N was camping in Moscow

Hopefully, there will be a scenario in the Peninsular War Campaign game that allows the mythical battle between Wellesley and Napoleon alone to take place , and then, the truth will out............

More than mythical, completely hypothetical

W left for London the 21 september 1808 (after Cintra affair ) and did not come back to Portugal until 22 april 1809.

Napoleon was in Spain between november 1808 and january 1809, so not a single day they coincided in the peninsula

 

[Marshal Lannes]

I skimmed this book two days ago, and as usual, am not that impressed. The Peninsular War seems to lack the passion of say the Russian Campaign for a lot of authors who seem to tread a path of formulaic conformity to some sort of set standard of mediocrity. Why bother investing years of your time in research and writing , so as to present something that is acceptable and well written, but bland. It is not a bad book, and covers the ground well , but lacks something. This is not helped by the pathetic maps which again could be easily designed by a chimpanzee with a rudimentary training in Powerpoint. Substance in a formulaic style requires good presentation and pictures, to excite interest. I wonder if some of these publishers give a gnats pee as to what can be achieved and are more interested in covering their butts in a time of recession by what seems to be an endless conveyor belt of titles on the Peninsular War, which on the surface look interesting, but fail to deliver a sense of excitement. I will view it in a bookshop if I need specific information on Junot's Campaign but will not be buying it.....so it definitely has some merit in that fact alone.........:crosseye:... for God's sake , put in some decent maps, you are not selling exclusively to chimpanzees.......:nuts:

 

[Nikel]

Here is a candid commentary on the book

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1pp1l/CountryImagesNovembe/resources/70.htm


By the same author, Wellington against Massena

http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1361


Was smashed in the napoleon series forum

http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/forum/archive2007_config.pl?md=read;id=78170


But they are not very expensive books

 

[trauth116]

Ideally I'd like to pick up a set of Oman's books, and supplement them with that Atlas that Nikel posted a link to. I do have Spanish Ulcer somewhere plus one other- I think by Glover? not sure- but it was published by Penguin. ... but all that is on my overloaded backburner :/ I also want some Baccus 6mm figures too - thinking British Rifles in skirmish mode and probably Highlanders in line mode (although I don't plan on neglecting the Emperor's men for sure... love my curaissers.).

 

[Nikel]

The Spanish Ulcer is probably the best single volume in the PW. The maps are awful, so the Spanish Ulcer+Osprey atlas is a very good combination

Several of Oman's volumes are available through google books. Posted a link above, not sure is working now, here is a new link. Depending on your location it may need a proxy to display the compete .pdf. The maps are gone, cut,... not careful enough scanning process, so the atlas is also needed

Vols. 1,2,3,5 and 6 can be downloaded.

Vol. 4, the one dealing with Albuera for example not available, it is the vol.3 though named 4

Vol.7 published in 1930, so not available, not yet in the public domain

http://books.google.com/books?q=editions:UOM39015002672411&id=0dFnAAAAMAAJ&hl=es

Vol. 4 available in Michigan University Library, but in a painful only one page, not the full .pdf. Again depending on your location. So if somebody here is a member of Michigan University and can log in and download the complete vol. I would be very grateful

http://mirlyn.lib.umich.edu/Record/000606989


Hmmm, no. In the University the Vol.4 is also Vol.3 What is not surprising, the source of google books scans is Michigan University

 

[Marshal Lannes]

Apparently Junot was a womanising , brawling, drunk and was only given his generalship because he was a close friend of Nappy and had served with distinction in the Italian Campaign, being appointed as Napoleon's first aide de camp. He received a head wound at the action of Lonato which changed his personality overnight. He suddenly became a distinguished womanising , brawling, drunk. What else can you do before the advent of TV, Cinema,DVD's, mobiles,game consoles and microwaves.etc. etc. :crosseye:

Never got into Napoleonic figurinr warfare, but liked reading the rulebooks as they contained info which you could use to convert your boardgames with. The 6mm figures would seem the best way togo, especially as the larger figures look really gross.

General Junot marching through the hills towards Lisboa.

Found the entire Oman series for £40 last year in a second-hand bookshop, but did not buy them. In my nutty days , it would have been a sure thing. :bite: