Macedonia region in EA

Olorin4

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Why is the Scopje region called "Macedonia"?

The region has no relation whatsoever to the real Macedonia, neither ancient nor modern. The name should be written a bit to the south, in Greece, since historically Macedonia was and still is Greek, if geographic, historical, cultural, religious, linguistic and racial criteria are applied.

I believe the map designer fell victim to political propaganda of an otherwise respectable and likable Slavic people trying to find (i.e. steal) a national identity. :smoke:
 

Veers

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Why is the Scopje region called "Macedonia"?

The region has no relation whatsoever to the real Macedonia, neither ancient nor modern. The name should be written a bit to the south, in Greece, since historically Macedonia was and still is Greek, if geographic, historical, cultural, religious, linguistic and racial criteria are applied.

I believe the map designer fell victim to political propaganda of an otherwise respectable and likable Slavic people trying to find (i.e. steal) a national identity. :smoke:
:clown: :laugh:
 

Olorin4

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Disclaimer: the scenario is awesome! But this little mistake should be corrected I think, for the sake of historicity (or whatever the word is :D).

Just a thought. :)
 

Heldenkaiser

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For my understanding the name "Macedonia" is claimed by both sides ... the Greeks, if I understand correctly, don't like to see it applied to any region outside their borders, fearing irredentist aggression (which is why the state of Macedonia, when joining the UN, ended up with the ridiculous acronym "FYROM - Former Yugoslawian Republic of Macedonia"). Historically, of course, Macedonia includes areas both inside and outside present-day Greece.

So in fact, in a historical game, restricting the name of Macedonia to Greece for reasons of a present-day political debate would certainly be ahistorical. My € .02.
 

Olorin4

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Well, what would be a better hex to have that word in?
86, 104 or a neighboring hex would be reflecting the actual core of said region.

Heldenkaiser, you are right in saying that this is only a political debate, inspired by The scopje government and the previous US administrations, with no base on actual history. There is no historical debate. Historians actually have no doubt that Macedonia was a Greek Kingdom and its core was between Mount Olympus and (present-day) Thessalonika. Why politicians think otherwise is another matter.

If you are interested, read this letter sent to Pr.Obama by 320+ historians teaching in American Universities.

http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

Just two random extracts from the letter:
"...We do not understand how the modern inhabitants of ancient Paionia, who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek..."
"...The traditions of ancient Paionia could be adopted by the current residents of that geographical area with considerable justification. But the extension of the geographic term “Macedonia” to cover southern Yugoslavia cannot. Even in the late 19th century, this misuse implied unhealthy territorial aspirations. The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it brazenly mock and provoke its neighbor?
However one might like to characterize such behavior, it is clearly not a force for historical accuracy, nor for stability in the Balkans. It is sad that the United States of America has abetted and encouraged such behavior.
We call upon you, Mr. President, to help - in whatever ways you deem appropriate - the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated."


So, on one hand we have a scientific consensus, and on the other, a political debate that completely ignores historical fact.
 

Heldenkaiser

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I guess I am at a loss to see why this is so important ... :shy:

But in any case, I believe the only question regarding the EA map is whether in 1939 this area around Skopje was known as Macedonia or not. If it was, it should be named so in EA, and if it wasn't, it shouldn't. Alexander the Great is as irrelevant to the question as the policies of present-day Greece in this respect.

So, let's come up with a period map of this area--preferably one not printed in either Greece or Yugoslawia, no offence intended--and see what it says. Otherwise this discourse is entirely academic.
 

Olorin4

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I guess I am at a loss to see why this is so important ... :shy:

But in any case, I believe the only question regarding the EA map is whether in 1939 this area around Skopje was known as Macedonia or not. If it was, it should be named so in EA, and if it wasn't, it shouldn't. Alexander the Great is as irrelevant to the question as the policies of present-day Greece in this respect.

So, let's come up with a period map of this area--preferably one not printed in either Greece or Yugoslawia, no offence intended--and see what it says. Otherwise this discourse is entirely academic.
Exactly. The region before WII was known as Vardar or Vardaska (not by me but by the Kingdom of Yugoslavia itself).
After WII, Tito arbitrarily named it Socialist Republic of Macedonia and that's when this whole conflict has its roots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardar_Banovina

And here's a map printed in Yugoslavia at the time.
 
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Heldenkaiser

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(terminology)

Interesting maps too ... seems no two people ever agreed on what is and what isn't Macedonia.

This really reminds one of the infamous Schleswig-Holstein question that drove mid-nineteenth century politicians into a frenzy. According to British prime minister Palmerstone: "The Schleswig-Holstein question is so complicated, only three men in Europe have ever understood it. One was Prince Albert, who is dead. The second was a German professor who became mad. I am the third and I have forgotten all about it." :D
 

Olorin4

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:laugh:
I don't think there is anything left to be said from my part. I presented my case and I will continue to enjoy EA, whatever this region is (rightly or wrongly) called in the scenario.
 
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