Korea 2005

[piero1971]

Hi,

I am starting to do a Modern-day scenario on a conflict in North Korea (for once on a operational scale).

I have collected a very good map (thanks CASE)
good OOB and TOE for North and South Korea and US forces in Korea and Japan
and thanks to globalsecurity.org, all the info on WMD (real this time) that North Korea has.

ok, what I need to develop are events and US/UN forces.

I would like to make a scenario that has a first few turns for players to choose strategic options:

1. North Korea attacks to preempt a US attack?
or
2. South Korea attacks to preemt s North Korean attack?
or
3. US preemetively attacks without support of North Korea to destroy North Korea's forces and WMD programs (with more air and naval assets) - in which case, if North Korea attacks, then South Korea is involved
or
4. any application of US plans that exist.

and in all cases, a level for Nuclear escalation for the north Korean (assuming it still can have the means) etc.


all with China, Russia, Japan, UK, France, etc. as possible interventions, etc.

I am also looking for many political events as well as level and speed of reinforcements, etc. and also, the time of the year of the attack, etc. and victory conditions...

any ideas, anyone that wants to contribute?

piero

 

[Case]

I found that the scale of the scenario and the number of options that need to be covered in the events engine put my scenario on this topic beyond my capabilities. I think that I'll fiddle about with it for the next few days and release it as a 'beta' version scenario.

Some ideas are:
* If NK attacks first, then the ROK/US forces should suffer from a large shock effect as it is almost certain that the NKs would achieve strategic suprise.
* As the war grinds on, NK should suffer a shock effect as the NK troops see more of South Korea and realise that their government has been lieing to them.
* Include a guerilla war behind the ROK lines - the NKs have literally tens of thousands of special forces troops dedicated to this mission, and it's likely that they have a network of guerillas in South Korea at present.
* One of the problems I found when testing my scenario is that the ROK military is easily capable of stopping the NKs dead in a few turns (this is using the best available TOEs, OOBs and giving the NKs a generous proficency level). As such, in order to make an interesting scenario you need to do something to hurt the ROK Army. You could have it start the scenario dispersed on internal security operations (perhaps following another coup? - Larry Bond used this scenario in his book 'Red Phoenix') or the NKs could use nuclear mines to blast a hole through the DMZ.

 

[piero1971]

Hi Nick! (tried to email you but email bounced back). great ideas. I'd be very happy to see your scenario in beta.

 

[piero1971]

Asian forces intervention

should a War in the Korean peninsula happen in the near future. What countries and what forces would be brought in the conflict.

let's assume the following:

1. China and Russia stays neutral and out of the conflict.


also let's plan three scenarios

1. North Korea attacks the South

2. South Korea attacks the North

3. US alone strikes the North, who may then retaliate against the South.

for each scenario, what would be the level (if any) of involvement of Asian nations, anf if yes, what troops/air/naval assets would be sent - and how long would it take?

- India?
- Indonesia?
- New Zealand?
- Australia?
- Philippines?
- taiwan?
- Malaysia?
- Thailand?
- Vietnam?
- Japan?

on the latter, what would be Japan involvement (other than allowing forces to use some of its basea) ? and under which conditions (use of nukes by the North Korean, attack on Japan bases, etc. would Japan send troops to South Korea - and if so which troops?)

 

[Amyrlin]

I think you have to take into account some of the political considerations outside of the region. The amount of forces that the United States is able to provide will vary depending on what sort of history you put behind the scenario. The possible beginnings of the scenario - NK attack, US attack, etc. - will also depend on the political considerations.

There are several possible situations in which we could see a new Korean war:

1) Iran continues with its nuclear weapons program, expels inspectors, etc. The US preemptively invades Iran in much the same way that it struck Iraq. The leadership in North Korea sees a pattern - remember the "Axis of Evil" of Iraq, Iran, and North Korea - and, in desperation, orders an attack on South Korea. In this situation US troops would be severly lacking, as the bulk of the US Army would be tied down in Iraq and Iran.

2) US unilaterally invades North Korea to preempt development of nuclear weapons. We'd see a lot of US forces, but lower replacement levels because of the overextension of US military power in Iraq and elsewhere. If you assume that the South does not go along with the US, then it would probably be a pure airborne/seaborne scenario, with US forces landing in North Korea to take out the nuclear weapons depots, and enforce regime change.

Of course, there's a bunch more scenarios possible, but these are two of the more plausible ones...

~Ryan

 

[piero1971]

yes! exactly!

in my scenario, I want to start with this premise:

- US involvment in Iraq remains as is now, and may even icnreae a bit.

- some US assets remain available for possible strike in Iran or Syria (mainly 6th fleet and 5th fleet remaining in Med and Indian Ocean) but no attack on Iran has happened yet.

amd it is in this supposition that I ask my above post.

 

[piero1971]

another question is on US forces.

I got a OOB of US forces korea, but what are the reinforcements available over time for striking NK ? what combat brigades are still available to the US military? and what strike capability is still available?

 

[piero1971]

by the way, I miss te TOW for these North Korean forces:

Light Infantry Training Guidance Bureau

17 Sniper Brigade
60 Sniper Brigade
61 Sniper Brigade
38 Airborne Brigade
58 Airborne Brigade

I would guess that a Sniper brigade is either light infantry OR a higher formation to provide sniper to other NK units.

 

[Case]

should a War in the Korean peninsula happen in the near future. What countries and what forces would be brought in the conflict.

When making my scenario, I assumed that all the American-Allied countries in Asia would contribute troops, and each country sent about a brigade.

- New Zealand?
- Australia?

It's hard to say what Australia and NZ would send. Both Australia and NZ's armies are small light-infantry forces unsuited to combat in North Korea. I modeled the Aust-NZ contribution as being an Australian F-111 squadron, the Australian 3rd (Air Mobile) brigade and a NZ Battalion Group. It would take about a month for Aust and NZ to move troops to South Korea.

and under which conditions (use of nukes by the North Korean, attack on Japan bases, etc. would Japan send troops to South Korea - and if so which troops?)

I was working on a low thresh-hold for Japanese involvement - if NK attacks them or NK captures Seoul Japanese ground forces are send. I just can't see the Japanese sitting by while a war vital to their security is going on next door. As for the forces sent, I used the 7th (Armoured) Division and the 1st Airmobile Brigade.

another question is on US forces.

I got a OOB of US forces korea, but what are the reinforcements available over time for striking NK ? what combat brigades are still available to the US military? and what strike capability is still available?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsianDefense/ has excelent OOBs for the likely US involvement in a second Korean war, along with supurb OOBs and TO&Es for both the Koreas. Membership is free and instant, and the site is very highly recomended.

BTW, the US DIA has a big document with NK TO&Es circa 1998 on its website. See also the excelent USMC North Korea handbook at: www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/refs.htm

Sniper brigades are special forces, and not snipers per-se. I just sent you a private message with information on their TO&E.

 

[piero1971]

thanks, excelent TOE! this helps greatly.

could you email me your scenario, sot that I give a look at it. I'll emil you minse as it is now.


--

on North Korean forces, what do you think should be the Force characteristics as well as the supply proficientcy and formation supply?

 

[Case]

I just posted the beta version of my scenario. It's available at: www.warfarehq.com/archives/showthread.php?p=1008#post1008

on North Korean forces, what do you think should be the Force characteristics as well as the supply proficientcy and formation supply?

In his excelent book, Joseph Bermudez states that the NKPA's supply levels are fairly good and that the light infantry units are well trained. The armoured and mechanised forces seem to be in much worse condition, as there simply isn't the fuel for them to conduct training, and I suspect that their war reserves are low. Bermudez is of the opinion that NK still has massive reserves of war stocks (up to a years worth!) and can sustain a lengthy war.

As such, I made the NK infantry units as proficent as the SK infantry and gave them about 110% supply (to model over-supply ahead of a major offensive). Their formation and force supply and proficency levels are lower then SKs though. The SK units are also much more formidible as they have better weapons and are fully motorised.

 

[piero1971]

I wish I could dump your scenario on a file to look at it better.

very interesting. Wee will have two different ones, as I worked it on a regimental/brigade scale instead of a divisional one, so it will be interesting to have both to play. great!

 

[Panzer-War]

:hmmm: Well I was hopeing to getting around to doing a modern Korea scenario but if both of you are already working on one I think I will just can it. Only had some thoughts on what I wanted to do at this point mainly in terms of a specialized exe.

:salute:

 

[piero1971]

ahhh. you counldn't resist to do AGAIN another -exe!!!!

it could be interesting to do - what new equipment sould you put that can't be simulated with the normal .exe? I guess modern USA squada (should be stronger than the one in the game?

hey, by the way, in your .exe i did not see a AK-47 squad or did I miss it?

 

[Panzer-War]

Exe.

My exe project is an attempt to do several things.

1. To simulate Infantry with body armor such as early flack vest-Kevlar vest from Korea to Modern. As well an attempt to specialize squads to nations as they very from size to how they are equipped. I am trying to specialize the most common ones and put common ones in for the minor or least used ones.

The body armor specifically related for what I thought about doing for a modern Korea scenario. Certainly U.S. Units will be able to take on at least 2-3 times there strength and win because of training and skill but also because of there equipment such as body armor that has been reported by troops in the field that they took hits in the chest and helmet from 7.62mm rounds and survived. I don’t believe a N.K. squad should be rated the same as a U.S. squad with the same defense strength. When the U.S. Infantry are wearing advanced body armor that provides that kind of protection.
This could be simulated through a shock bonus but I don’t see that as a good way since every thing will get the bonus. As well I am not shure that S.K. has the same level of advanced Body armor or if they have any at all.

2. To specialize heavy infantry weapons such as AT weapons bazookas and Piats and so on. As well Machine Guns witch in my opinion all MGs are not created equally.

3. To add new and advanced equipment to it such as stryker vehicles, F-35 fighter JSF. As well equipment left out different model weapons such as Pz 38t E,G.

4. To improve the armor vehicles. One thing that always seemed odd to me was that the amx AFV had only 1 point less on its armor value than the m-60A1 witch from the sources I have on it put its max armor at the same as a late panther :surprise: . And was designed around the concept of speed and maneuverability over armor.

5. To improve the naval units witch was scaled back

I was thinking of trying many things to the naval units for a modern Korea Scenario.

Sorry getting tired.

I had a list somewhere of modified and added equipment it is probly outdated but if you want ill post it if I find it.

need to :bored:

 

[JMS]

My exe project is an attempt to do several things.

1. To simulate Infantry with body armor such as early flack vest-Kevlar vest from Korea to Modern. As well an attempt to specialize squads to nations as they very from size to how they are equipped. I am trying to specialize the most common ones and put common ones in for the minor or least used ones.

The solution is to increase the defence strength of the Infantry. If you give them armored values, they are going to be targeted by 100mm guns, and no flak vest is going to resist that!

 

[Panzer-War]

JMS

I didn't mean because I said body armor that I meant I was giveing them an armor value. I would have never done that the problem is finding the right defense strength value. Witch requires a lot of play testing it.

 

[Panzer-War]

AK-47s

piero I don't have any squad named as AK-47s because I never got around to it if your looking for a squad armed with just AKs I would suggest you use the early or late assault squads. There’s no difference in AP rateing of an ak or an M16 I generalized them into two categories early (1940-1960) or late (1960-2010) Assault rifles. I’m not sure I understand your entire post? Are you asking if you can use my exe? Or are you asking if I will work on an exe for your modern Korea scenario.

Edit-----------------

Also may I ask what your scenario piero will encompass are you planning on mainly focusing on the Korean peninsula. I was thinking of something around 2003-2005.

 

[piero1971]

ak

I was pulling your leg.. your .exe for the Korea war is great.
(actually I think the TOAW should really be updated... to have post 1990 infantry.. and more of c4i elements, but...)

 

[Panzer-War]

Ya TOAW could ceartinly use an update tough I got tired of waiting for an update so I decided I would do what I can and try an improve upon it. Yikes how long has it been since it was updated? Years? :OHNO: well I guess we can continue to hope that it will get updated or better yet TOAW II. :smoke: