German OoB

[The Purist]

Use this thread to suggest a German OoB and how you would use it. Then flip it around and describe how you would defeat it. I know it's all subjective, speculative and dependant on your oppposition but specifics are not necessary. General tactics will do.

 

[Artur]

I am thinking about a mix of PZIII with 70 frontal armor and strong 50mm gun. (PzIIIL or PZIIIJs) about 70-80% of the force. The remaining part is PzIVF2s or PZIGs. The PzIIIs advance in the front the PzIV stay in cover behind them(they have thin armor.)
PzIIIs fight from Hull Down position en masse they are used in tight formation(s). The PzIV snipe(in one formation) and cover the flanks.

The weak point is usually to be flanked out.
Some tanks have too thick armor for the PzIIIs.

I ran one test battle (with version 1.01) ant the Grants had all their guns damaged, yet all their AP ammo bounced from the PZIIIs frontal armor. :devious: If they come with Stuarts en-masse The PzIIIs will do even better.

I am curious what the others will suggest. I may play around with the OOBs on Sunday.

The allied force composition is trickier, there may be several good concepts.

Artur.

 

[Fionn]

First let me put forth the assumptions I am using to come up with this force composition:

1.Armour is worthless unless it is able to keep out shells. IOW if the enemy gun can penetrate 100mm of armour and you have 80mm of armour then all the weight ( and points) spent on that armour have been wasted. Therefore if one cannot purchase sufficient armour to defeat enemy shells one should concentrate on the armament of friendly tanks and not worry about their armour.

E.g. if the enemy tanks can penetrate 100mm of armour then a Pz IV is as dead, if hit, as a Marder III. Since both mount the same gun one should purchase Marders instead of Pz IV for overwatch.


2. I haven't seen the map or heard its dimensions but I assume that it is long enough to allow engagement ranges of up to 1km.


3. Hull-down firing positions are almost worthless unless ones turret front armour is strong enough to shrug off hits. Otherwise one may be better to just sit on the hill crest and hope the angling of frontal hull armour results in ricochets.

4. It is necessary to have some long-range snipers to pick off enemy over-watching forces. These should be very high experience.


So, in analysing the German force I came to the following conclusions.

1. A Platoon of Pz IIs for recon would be worthwhile.

2. Pz IIIJs have the best turret front armour and a gun meaty enough to kill most enemy tanks they could meet. They are thus eminently suited to hull-down positions likely to be in range of a lot of enemy units.

3. Pz IV Gs with 50mm of armour have the best gun the Germans mounted in a rotating turret AND don't waste points on armour which will:
a) benefit the tank nothing in hull-down positions since the extra armour is mostly on the hull and
b) drive up the cost of the tank to a major degree at little benefit to survivability.

4. The most cost-effective snipers the Germans can field are Marder IIs with 75mm L/46 guns. They can penetrate anything they face up against and don't lose as much initial muzzle velocity to Stuarts as the Marders with the Soviet 76.2mm gun. (An important consideration in snipers since muzzle velocity plays a major part in calculating first round hit probability, very important to as weakly armoured a unit as the Marder.


So, here's the force:
5 x Green Panzer IIc
3 x Platoons of Veteran Pz IV G (early)
1 x Platoon of Veteran Pz III J (late)

2 x Platoons of Marder II. Out of the 8 Marders 4 will be Crack, 4 will be Elite.


Plan, use the Panzer IIc and 1 platoon of Pz IV Gs to make a feint along one side of the map.

Keep the 2 platoons of Marders in full defilade positions farther back. Once enemy forces are seen taking up overwatch positions engage them with the full platoon of Marders in best position to do so. Obviously if more than 2 enemy tanks are in overwatch you should attempt to overmatch them by bringing the two platoons of Marders into hull-down to achieve the maximum fire superiority possible.


1 platoon of Pz IIIJ and 2 platoons of Pz IV Gs make the main effort on the flank opposite the IIc platoon. The IIIJs are for overwatch purposes since their turret fronts are the strongest on the German side. Once this company reaches the position you want the Pz IIIJs should go hull-down and try to tempt the enemy into action against them. When the enemy come into action the Pz IV platoons, hiding just below the crest of the hill, will race up into hull-down positions. So now, instead of facing just 4 tanks the enemy will be facing 12 and with that kind of fire superiority you should crush them quickly and easily ( especially if you add some Marder II long-range fire to the mix).

Rinse and repeat. Once you've gotten a few kills from the Marders and the Pz III "platoon" ambush the numbers should start turning in your favour and it should be relatively easy to repeat the numerical overmatching.


BTW, the 20 turn limit is going to act to turn this away from a game heavy with tactical skill into a bit more of a "rumble" in which people will be almost forced to rush along in tactically unsound manners.


I think the Allied best strategy is to have a horde of Valentines. 80something Valentines racing towards one en masse simply cannot help but get into knife-fighting range and slaughter the German force (unless the German commander is VERY skillful and can conduct a proper fighting withdrawal... the most difficult military manoeuvre to imagine).

 

[Doctor Sinister]

Firstly - excellent posting Fionn.

Secondly - oh boy, I'm getting rather depressed reading all this high-strategy...don't get me wrong, you guys clearly know your stuff and it's all very impressive, but I'm wondering if I ought to be here given my (extremely) limited experience in these matters - because I am seriously going to get slaughtered if my opponent is thinking along lines like the above...

Dr. S.

 

[The Purist]

Worry not, Dr S.,

You and I are both in similar straights. However, I am not worried about my opponent. I have played many a wargame since 1973 and have always found playing a more experienced chap quite instructive.

Just keep in mind that there are 120 players in the joust,...60 will lose. I do not know if I will win or lose but I fully intend on taking my tanks out there and kicking some butt.

The approach to the victory flags from the German side is somewhat easier than from the British. It will be possible to rush a number of tanks into the low ground nearby and wait for the British. Your overwatchers have good heights to the rear to skulk about on and sneak a peek over the hills, fire a couple shots, bag a few tanks.

I feel the Germans can win even more now that rarity is gone. All those Mk IVs just got a whole lot cheaper,...they will execute quite a slaughter on the enemy.

For our British teammates, you, too, will be facing a large number of Marders and Mk III/IVs. The approach to the victory flag is a little more congested but if can reach the plateau en masse you might try a charge,...but be wary of 'low ground' ambushes.

Courage men, courage. Though some of us may fall, victory will be ours. We are, afterall,...

"THE LIGHT BRIGADE"

 

[Doctor Sinister]

Having just scooted around the map I am a little more confident - but only a little. That hollow is quite impressive - an approaching enemy tank would make a lovely silhouette for my gunners as it crested the hill...

I've never really mucked around with Marders, I might give some a spin in a moment to see what they are good at.

A question - is it better to have more experienced crews but less hulls or greener crews but more vehicles to play with? Or is that a REALLY daft question....

Dr. S.

 

[The Purist]

IMO, I would give my overwatch lads at least veteran status. Marders are lightly armoured assault guns that will usually die from the first solid hit. In this instance even the US made 37mm is threat because it packs a fair punch at long range (quite a high velocity).

Marder IIs are cheap and carry a truly impressive gun for the period, ammo is a bit low but each hit will likely be a kill. If you can manage 2 - 3 kils for each Marder lost you are ahead of the game. My main punch will probably (I will re-invent my force tonight with rarity turned off) come from Pz IIIJ (late) and Pz IVG tanks in a ratio of about 3:1.

I am not sure of the cost but I will see if we Germans can afford the following with 5000 points:

8 Marder II - Veterans
8 Pz IVG (80mm armour) - veteran crews
24 Pz IIIJ (late) - regular crews.

If the above works (with 5000 points). I plan to use the Marders in a deep sniper role (as per Fionn's advise), the Mk IVs in a standoff/overwatch/reserve role, and have the Pz IIIs rush the flags and disperse to cover the approaches.

The above gives us 40 tanks and I suspect there might be a few points left over. The Brits could come at us with about 50 or so M3 Lee/Grant or a lesser number of Shermans. There is also the possiblity of the 80 Valentine scenario but the crew quality would be only regular. If the Brits want good crews they will have to sacrifice number, just like we do.

I'll post a couple of suggestions tonight.

 

[Doctor Sinister]

Well, just for a laugh I just bought 2 Platoons of Marders, a Platoon of Panzer IIcs for scouting, 2 Platoons of Panzer IIILs, and 4 (count 'em) Platoons of Panzer IVGs, all at Crack level - and I think I had some points left.

CHARGE!

Dr. S.

 

[KG_Norad]

Marders to pack a good punch but VERY delicate, they are great if you can get shots off BEFORE taking any return fire.(the big dilemma.)

I played the AI last night and lost both of my marders on the first hit with only one kill between them. My PZIV's managed to shake of several rounds from stuart II's, Valentines, and the big boxy looking british assault gun (for lack of remembering the name.) My PZIII (L? or J's?) held up well too.

 

[The Purist]

I think the box with a gun was either a 'Bishop' (Valentine chasis, UK) or an M7 Priest (M3 chasis, US).

"Well, just for a laugh I just bought 2 Platoons of Marders, a Platoon of Panzer IIcs for scouting, 2 Platoons of Panzer IIILs, and 4 (count 'em) Platoons of Panzer IVGs, all at Crack level - and I think I had some points left."

This bodes well for what I said in the previous post. The Valentine swarm is less dangerous if our own numbers go up. For those who will go with 5000 points, the numbers could get quite large on both sides - 50-60 tanks or more.

Yoiks!

 

[Doctor Sinister]

Scouting units just got knocked out by approaching Valentines - Crusaders are on the horizon. Let's see if these Marder things works at extreme range...

Dr. S.

 

[The Purist]

Scouting units just got knocked out by approaching Valentines - Crusaders are on the horizon. Let's see if these Marder things works at extreme range...

Steady lads, steady,....watch your aim-off marks, gently on the traverse wheel, give 'em a good lead,....FIRE!!!!

 

[Doctor Sinister]

Steady lads, steady,....watch you aim-off marks, gently on the traverse wheel, give 'em a good lead,....FIRE!!!!

Well, I can tell you one thing - 4 Panzer IVs firing at a single Valentine is very nice to see - especially when they score simultaneous turret penetrations.

Dr. S.

 

[yohajin]

Well, I can tell you one thing - 4 Panzer IVs firing at a single Valentine is very nice to see - especially when they score simultaneous turret penetrations.

Especially when they keep pumping rounds into it's carcass while 8 more enemy tanks move in for the kill... that can get annoying!

Yohajin

 

[Fionn]

Just to re-iterate a point:

Units which can SURVIVE enemy hits can afford to be lower quality. Units which need to kill the enemy before they are hit need to have higher experience. The one exception to this is if you are going to buy a vehicle to make up the numbers and engage in fighting at MAD ( mutually assured destruction) ranges ( sub-500m) then regular or veteran Pz IVs will do just fine.


So, is there really a point in making the Pz IIIJs crack or elite? They can survive quite well so don't need first round kills to ensure their own survival. Also, their main gun can't kill everything they are going to face so you could potentially waste a lot of points. Lastly, it costs a lot to up their experience since the cost of experience is relative to the base cost of the vehicle. Increasing the experience of a 200pt tank costs twice as much as the same jump for a 100pt tank. I would suggest that the vehicles you want to up the experience of ( thus guaranteeing more first round hits) are the ones whose hits ( at any range) will be kills.


So from those points of view AND because the Marders are trying for long-range shots I would say the Marders are the cheapest and most needful of the extra experience. The Pz IIIJs should be the last to be upgraded ( apart from the green cannon-fodder Pz IIs) and when u've upgraded all the Marders the rest can go to Pz Ivs.


P.s. I've tested the Pz IIIJs vs Allied tanks of the time and I must admit I don't think they do the job beyond 500 metres. Pz IV Gs ( with 50mm armour all round) are cheap and a lot more likely to get a kill of anything they can see.

 

[Fionn]

That's another point actually. The 50mm is a lot more likely to achieve a kill but for that kill not to be immediately noticeable such that your Pz IIIs continue to engage a dead target.


75mm-armed vehicles are a lot more likely to notice the kill immediately and move on to engage other targets.

 

[The Purist]

Have go at this

I'll post this to both OoB.

Those with the time might want to run (test) the following at 5000 points:

German -
3 Pz IIC, Green
8 Marder II, Crack
12 Pz IVG, Veteran
28 Pz IIIJ (late), Regular

48 tanks (51 with Mk IIs) with plenty of overwatch ability and numbers to mix it up. The heavier armour on the Mk IIIs will allow it to engage the Brits and turn away a few hits.

British -
12 Valentine VIII, Veteran
42 M3 Lee, Regular

The Valentines are carrying the best gun in the allied inventory but are slow. They can play a good overwatch role with a gun that has a high velocity and good penetration, while the vehicle presents a small taget. The 57mm is not facing Panthers here, it's quite dangerous. The M3s have the armour/fire power to mix it up at range or in close plus they are fairly fast. The 37mm gun should not be scoffed at, it will kill a Marder at long range.

 

[Fionn]

I tried out a 3000 point per side battle.

Germans, as per the OOB I posted here earlier. Brits, something like 42 Valentines.

End result, 2 Pz IIc and 1 Pz IV dead, 1 Marder III and 2 Pz IV gun damaged. Brits, 16 Valentines dead multiple gun damaged, panicked and immobilised vehicles. Fewer than 20 runners by the end of the battle and nowhere for them to move except into killzones.


Couple of things came up:
1. Since there are going to be no infantry can the HE shells be swapped out for more AP? This would be particularly useful for Marders.

2. There's no difficulty getting long-range LOS. I fought several battles out at 1800m and the majority of my kills occured at 1 to 1.2km. Near the end things got a little exciting with a Panzer IV platoon moving to cut into the flank of a 15-strong Valentine thrust. Threw in some long-range Marder fire and some hull-down Pz IIIs to soak up fire and managed to pull it off without loss. Was lucky there.

3. 70mm armour on the turret front is sufficient for hull-down sniping. No Pz IIIs had their turret fronts penetrated.

4. Query the usefulness of the Pz III. It shoots off its ammo too quickly to be useful as a sniper. When it hits it rarely kills.


5. Pz IIs worthless. Once your first tank is knocked out u can put the crew on a hill and get good spotting. So, no need for anything more than a single Pz II sitting on top of the biggest hill u can find. When it dies the crew dismount and continue to call in the enemy advance.


6. So, instead of a platoon of Pz IIIJs and of Pz IIs I think this could be cut to 1 x Pz II (green). The points saved can be used to up-armour the Pz IVs and to give some of them crack experience.


If we're allowed to swap out HE for AP this will give the vehicles enough AP to engage in a LOT of long-range sniping which will really pay off if the main gun bore is the 75mm IMO.

 

[The Purist]

"2. There's no difficulty getting long-range LOS. I fought several battles out at 1800m and the majority of my kills occured at 1 to 1.2km. Near the end things got a little exciting with a Panzer IV platoon moving to cut into the flank of a 15-strong Valentine thrust. Threw in some long-range Marder fire and some hull-down Pz IIIs to soak up fire and managed to pull it off without loss. Was lucky there."

I suppose the big question would be whether a human opponent would not be able to use his own overwatch/platoon actions to counter the tactics? I realize that only the battle itself will tell but I am still concerned about allied tanks mounting the 57mm gun and a human at the controls.

 

[yohajin]

One thing we might want to try for vs comp testing is to add an extra flag in the middle of each "side" of the map (large or even small, see which works best). This might increase the likelihood that the computer will play more like a human opponent--the goal being to play around with strategies, countermeasures, early- and mid-game manveuvering, and danger areas to watch out for.

I will probably do one like this over the weekend with a full report (not the weak report I did the other day), including OoB and the juicy details.

Any suggestions for German OoB I should use? Perhaps one of those posted in the German OoB forum or an alternative? I will make my own choices for the British but I may follow some of the suggestions I've seen.

Yohajin