Escape Attempt Question

[peterk1]

Just did a search and couldn't come up with anything similar to this being asked before and I don't have my v2 rulebook handy.

The rules section on Prisoner Escape seems to be written for the common case of the Guard unit being broken due to being shot at then the prioners all by themseleves initiating CC in the hex as an escape attempt.

BUT, there is another case in which guards have their prisoners too close to the front lines and Good Order enemy unit(s) advance into CC against a lone unbroken guard to attempt to rescue them. This can happen really easily in FIghting Withdrawal because the Finn is trying to get his russian prisoners off the board and is usually somewhat aggressive with those stacks.

I've read the Escape section over and over again and it seems really ackwardly worded for this situation and I'm wondering if I'm doing things right.

The way I've been treating this in my games...

Imagine that if in the initial CC vs the guard by the good order advancing unit, The prisoner does nothing.

If we have a Melee in the next CCPh, then the prisoners try to escape. They do not have to take the TC because there is a Melee in the location.

They attack the guard. This attack is sequential and the guard cannot attack himself before it is resolved.

QUESTION: Is the first attack by prisoners sequential even if there is already a Melee in the location?

Is it considered a prisoner CC attack or a Prisoner Melee attack?
I'm not sure what the intent of the rule is in this case.

QUESTION: If yes, are subsequent attacks by the prisoner also done sequentially?

I'm assuming no. All depends on what the rule book means by a prisoner CC attack (ie. does it encompass prisoner Melee attacks?)

QUESTION: After the first CC attack by the prisoners, do they get treated as any other unit, with the sole caveat that they must attack their guard. Can they join with the Good Order unit(s) in the hex to attack the guard (and perhaps others).

Again I'm thinking yes, but I'm not sure. Depends on teh answer to the last question. If prisoner attacks are always sequential, then this in effect prevents them from co-operating with other non-prisoner units in the Melee.

 

[Georgii2222]

If we have a Melee in the next CCPh, then the prisoners try to escape. They do not have to take the TC because there is a Melee in the location.

They do have to take the TC.

[font=Helvetica,Arial]Q. May Prisoners attack without a NTC once a Melee exists within its hex?
[/font][font=Helvetica,Arial]A. No. See errata {97}[/font][font=Helvetica,Arial] [/font]

 

[ASL Couple]

I believe that you have not taken the second sentence of A20.55 into account.

It says (at least in ASLRBv1) "This attack can only occur during the CCPh and only if the Guard is broken."

The prisoners can't attack their Guards just because the Guards are in Melee; the Guard still has to be broken. However, there is a greater chance the prisoners' friends wil survive because the Guards firepower is halved.

 

[Georgii2222]

I believe that you have not taken the second sentence of A20.55 into account.

It says (at least in ASLRBv1) "This attack can only occur during the CCPh and only if the Guard is broken."

The prisoners can't attack their Guards just because the Guards are in Melee; the Guard still has to be broken. However, there is a greater chance the prisoners' friends wil survive because the Guards firepower is halved.

Aha! And you fail to take into account the THIRD sentence!! Muahahaha!:laugh:

You are mistaken about the broken bit (from V2):


"A20.55.....Once a Melee exists within the Location, prisoners may, during the CCPh, attack without passing a NTC and even if the Guard is not broken...."

 

[Corporal Kindel]

Prisoners in Melee

Imagine that if in the initial CC vs the guard by the good order advancing unit, The prisoner does nothing.

If we have a Melee in the next CCPh, then the prisoners try to escape. They do not have to take the TC because there is a Melee in the location.

They attack the guard. This attack is sequential and the guard cannot attack himself before it is resolved.

QUESTION: Is the first attack by prisoners sequential even if there is already a Melee in the location?

Is it considered a prisoner CC attack or a Prisoner Melee attack?
I'm not sure what the intent of the rule is in this case.

Correct, they don't have to pass a NTC once a Melee exists in the Location, A20.55 v2:

"Once a Melee exists within the Location, prisoners, may, during the CCPh, attack without passing a NTC and even if the Guard is not broken."

Note there is no difference between CC attack & Melee attack. Melee is simply a condition existing between opposing Known enemy units occupying the same Location after being attacked in CC. The rules of CC simply govern those attacks. I don't see your distinction between prisoner CC attack & prisoner Melee attack. The only difference I see in is that prisoners may only attack their guard if the guard is broken & the prisoners first pass a NTC, unless Melee exists in which case they can attack even if the guard is not broken & don't have to pass a NTC first. Otherwise the mechanics of the attack are the same in either case (i.e. sequential, compare strength factors to determine odds ...)

Yes, CC is still sequential once Melee is initiated, A11.33 v2:

"PRISONERS: Prisoners attempting to eliminate their captor may resolve all of their CC attacks first (20.55)"

QUESTION: If yes, are subsequent attacks by the prisoner also done sequentially?

I'm assuming no. All depends on what the rule book means by a prisoner CC attack (ie. does it encompass prisoner Melee attacks?).

Yes they are still sequential as per A11.33, Note they can only attack their guard as you noted below.

QUESTION: After the first CC attack by the prisoners, do they get treated as any other unit, with the sole caveat that they must attack their guard. Can they join with the Good Order unit(s) in the hex to attack the guard (and perhaps others).

Again I'm thinking yes, but I'm not sure. Depends on teh answer to the last question. If prisoner attacks are always sequential, then this in effect prevents them from co-operating with other non-prisoner units in the Melee.

I agree with your first "yes" but not with the second "If prisoner attacks are always sequential, ... prevents them from co-operating". If a CC/Melee situation exists then the rules of CC/Melee govern that situation (i.e.: A11.1 to A11.8) none of these rules exclude prisoners/unarmed units, and mostly refer to "units" in reference to the rules governing CC/Melee. Quoting (in part) from rule A11.12 MECHANICS:

"...Units may attack any unit or combination of units in the same Location ..."

These rules do not exclude prisoners/unarmed units and in fact, the definition of 'unit' in the glossary is:

"Any game piece or counter with its own MF/MP allotment and normally capable of movement without being portaged, pushed, or towed, Infantry, Cavalry [but not horses], Dummy stacks, and vehicles (even if immobilized) are all different types of units."

So, I would say yes the prisoner (as long as it attacks its guard) can attack more than one opposing enemy unit and even combine with other friendly units as per A11.12 in so doing, the entire attack being sequential (i.e. resolved before the DEFENDING player).
Hope that covers it,
rk

 

[peterk1]

Couple of things to react to here....

They do have to take the TC.

Q. May Prisoners attack without a NTC once a Melee exists within its hex?
A. No. See errata {97}

Hi Georgii, This one is _really_ sneaky. If you ask me, this Q&A should have been left out entirely in the v2 rules. In the original v1 rules, it said that if there was a Melee in the same HEX, prisoners didn't have to pass a TC. They meant to write "Location" not hex. The person who asked the question wanted to know if a Melee in the ground floor of a building meant that his prisoners on the 1st floor didn't have to take the TC.

So, I would say yes the prisoner (as long as it attacks its guard) can attack more than one opposing enemy unit and even combine with other friendly units as per A11.12 in so doing, the entire attack being sequential (i.e. resolved before the DEFENDING player).

I thought about this too and rejected it as too exploitable. Sequential CC's are usually pretty valuable and you only get them via ambush. It seems rather odd to give good order units in the hex a free sequential attack just by the virtue of helping prisoners. It looks like you're right...it just smells a little funny to me if you know what I mean.

It looks like I'm able to say that my prisoner HS will attack its guard as well as all the other good order enemy in the hex and then also say that my 3 good order squads in the same hex will aid in that attack and bang...free sequential attack of all my units against all ememy units. That can't be right.

I've also been wondering about whether prisoners shuld be able to cancel a failed escape attempt if it doesn't work after 1-2 CC rounds. Would be nice to able to but it's not in the rules. Looks like an all or nothing gambit?

 

[Georgii2222]

Couple of things to react to here....



Hi Georgii, This one is _really_ sneaky. If you ask me, this Q&A should have been left out entirely in the v2 rules. In the original v1 rules, it said that if there was a Melee in the same HEX, prisoners didn't have to pass a TC. They meant to write "Location" not hex. The person who asked the question wanted to know if a Melee in the ground floor of a building meant that his prisoners on the 1st floor didn't have to take the TC.

Not trying to be sneaky. I didn't catch the *hex* reference.

*sigh* I should know better than to try and answer rules questions on flipping prisoners. Not like *I* understand those rules anyway. :shock:

I just realized in the 2 posts I made above, I contradicted *myself*!:dead:

Eh, waddyagonnado?

 

[Larry]

The published errata for the V.1 rules change the word "hex" to "location." As modified, the V.1 rules conform to the V.2 rules.