Drifting smoke across interior building

[Binchois]

Fire on the ground floor of X7! :yell:



How would one work the drifting smoke here? The building is Ground Level only with a Level 1 and 2 Steeple in Y7. By rule (A24.61), the blaze-hex smoke rises to Level 4, but would not drift into the interior of building hex, Y7....

A) Would there still be smoke above the building in hexes Y7 and Z6 (Thus smoking out any steepl-ers)? Natürlich, but would that smoke cover up to level 2 (from the level 1 rooftop), or up to level 3 (as if the rooftop was ground-level for those two hexes)?

B) Either way, I assume there would also be smoke in AA6. But would that fall back to ground level? Or exist only between the same levels as hexes Y7 and Z6. So far as I know, smoke doesn't settle...

C) Is there a rule/Q&A to cover this issue? The closest I can find is part of A24.61:

All drifting Smoke is a Hindrance up to two levels higher, and drifting WP up to four levels higher, than the Location it occupies, but never a Hindrance at levels below the Location of the original SMOKE source...​

Of course, neither Y7 nor Z6 is the original SMOKE source...

D) BONUS QUESTION: If the building was the standard, level 2 (with stairwell in Y7), does smoke drift at all? If so, how so?

If this was real life, I think it would go like this: A) Smoke from rooftop up to 3rd level; B) NO - Smoke exists in AA6 only between 1st and 3rd level. C) I don't think the RB (or existing Q&A) exactly covers this case. D) Smoke drifts from rooftop up to level 4 (hindrance for levels 2 and 3 from hexes Y7, Z6 and AA6)...

 

[Eagle4ty]

Since the Smoke from the terrain blaze is only a two level hindrance (A24.4) A level 2 drifting Smoke would be placed in Y7 especially since the building is only a ground level structure [EXC: A level 2 Steeple in Y7] if I understand you correctly. I would probably put a level 2 steeple counter above the smoke to denote its effects are the same as the unit "A" in example A24.4 and remember that Drifting Smoke cannot exist in the non-rooftop locations of Y7 & Z6 nor in the ground location of AA6. Since a Steeple location is treated as any other building Location excepted as noted, the level 1 portion of the steeple would suffer the full effects of the drifting smoke since it's not an interior building location. Wind Force does not effect Fire (B25.63) spread within a building but Drifting Smoke is covered per A24.61 but since Y7, Z6 & AA6 are not interior building locations at level 1 (ignoring the 1/2 level roof), drifting Smoke would occur in these locations up to level 2 "...[EXC: to/from non-rooftop Locations of an Interior Building hex]..." as the Steeple would neither prevent smoke drifting into nor out of Y7 (I would probably put a level 1 counter in AA6 to denote Drifting Smoke does not exist at ground level).

BONUS QUESTION: If you have discerned the answer to the original query, you will have answered your Bonus Question as Drifting Smoke cannot occur "to/from non-rooftop Locations of an Interior Building hex" (A24.61).

 

[Pyth]

Well, I wrote one reply and deleted because I misunderstood situation... and then I let this sit 24 hours... cooked up a new post -- and one minute before I post... Eagle4ty posts ahead of me. Oy!



First -- You wrote: "How would one work the drifting smoke here? The building is Ground Level only with a Level 1 and 2 Steeple in Y7. By rule (A24.61), the blaze-hex smoke rises to Level 4, but would not drift into the interior of building hex, Y7...."

The blaze smoke rises only to level 2 because there must be a mild breeze to drift the smoke.

25.2 SMOKE: Any Burning Wreck or terrain Blaze is automatically shrouded by smoke up to four levels [EXC: none in Heavy Winds (25.63); two levels in a Mild Breeze (A24.4)] above the level of the Fire in that hex, so no actual smoke counters need be placed on those Fires.

Second -- I think a reasonable person could argue for a house-rule here about the steeple being a non-interior building location. The RB, as far as I can tell, only defines interior building hexes --

INDEX: Interior Building Hex (a building hex completely surrounded by building hexsides, such as 1X4 or 20C7)

and this makes a problem for the steeple -- the steeple, common sense tells us is not an 'interior' location, but the smoke rules don't care about locations... they mention hexes. So, unfortunately, a steeple in Y7 does meet the definition of an interior building hex ("surrounded by building hexsides"). According to the RB, Smoke does not drift into interior building hexes, so I think the RB purist can insist that smoke does not drift into Y7, steeple or not.

I think a completely in-the-spirit-of-the-rules house rule can and should be cooked up on the spot for this -- there is smoke at level 1 and 2 of Y7 (the steeple) and none in the actual interior building location of Y7 level 0. Z6 and AA6 have level 0-2 smoke normally.

As to B and C. I think your questions in B and C are based in you inferring a sort of continuous flow of smoke from source to drift.

Is that how smoke drift is played? It makes sense, but It's sort of ambiguous in the RB...

Whenever there is a Mild Breeze, Dispersed SMOKE drifts from any original SMOKE source [EXC: to/from non-rooftop Locations of an Interior Building hex] at the start of the game's first RPh and at the start of every AFPh. Drifting SMOKE consists of a number of Dispersed SMOKE counters equal to the Hindrance DRM of the original SMOKE placed directly downwind from the original SMOKE source (even if the original SMOKE source was Dispersed). All drifting Smoke is a Hindrance up to two levels higher, and drifting WP up to four levels higher, than the Location it occupies, but never a Hindrance at levels below the Location of the original SMOKE source.

What does to/from mean there? Does the interior location break the chain of drift (no smoke drifting FROM the interior, so no further smoke down the chain?) -- or are the hexes down the chain considered independently and so there is no smoke in the interior building hex, but smoke is placed in the hexes further along?

I think an interior building hex stops the flow of smoke. But given the RB text I wouldn't be at all surprised if some players insist a correct reading of that rule is -- Drifted smoke is placed at Z6 and AA6 levels 0 to 2... without any reference to what levels contain drifted smoke or not in Y7.

What is the consensus on that smoke drift rule?

 

[Binchois]

This makes sense...for some reason I forgot that a mild breeze reduces the blaze hex smoke to 2 levels, so most everything is how I expected.

I know there won't be any Smoke inside the building at Y7 (interior). Nor did I think there should be Smoke at ground level of Z7 or AA6.

But what rule confirms that there should be no ground level smoke in Z7 or AA6? I cited A24.61 as the closest thing (... drifting Smoke is never a Hindrance at levels below the Location of the original SMOKE source.). But Y7 isn't the original SMOKE source, so the rule either doesn't apply or is incompletely worded.

Also, if the the X7 blaze was still there (at ground level) but the rest of the building was a level one hill mass, wouldn't drifting Smoke in Y7 and Z7 rise to level 3?:

All drifting Smoke is a Hindrance up to two levels higher, and drifting WP up to four levels higher, than the Location it occupies...​

The RB says that smoke can't drift lower than the original source. The above citation suggests that it could go higher when the terrain rises. This is why I can imagine an interior building hex (of a level one building) working like a level 1 hill, with the rooftop becoming equivalent to "ground level."

As Pyth says, I am likely overthinking this. Possibly, I'm just overlooking something that is obvious...

 

[Pyth]

This is why I can imagine an interior building hex (of a level one building) working like a level 1 hill, with the rooftop becoming equivalent to "ground level."

Sure that's an interesting house rule -- just so we agree it's wholly your own. There's nothing in the RB I'm aware of that suggests an interior building hex creates a new ground level for smoke. When smoke drifts to a rooftop location, that doesn't mean it stacks up +2 levels above the roof does it?

Nor did I think there should be Smoke at ground level of Z7 or AA6.

I think if smoke has drifted into those hexes at all, it's at ground level up to 2. (*I also believe I've been discussing Z7 erroneously, the correct hex identifier is Z6 -- the Blaze is X7, potential drifts are Y7, Z6, AA6)

But suppose we are talking about a completely normal 2 level building in which Y7 is an uncomplicated interior building hex -- What smoke counters are placed if a mild breeze blows drifting smoke as we've been discussing? Are zero drift smoke counters placed because the smoke hits an interior hex --Y7 -- and stops? ... or is Y7 skipped over and then two Smoke counters placed -- One in Z6 and one in AA6? ....really hoping for some authoritative guidance on this as I can see justification for either view. I don't think the RB is clear on this point.

 

[Binchois]

Sure that's an interesting house rule -- just so we agree it's wholly your own...

Agreed!
...I think.

The reason for my post is that I think the RB is unclear on these points. I was hoping that someone could point out what I was missing or show me a Q&A (or Gamesquad thread) that addresses something similar.

There's nothing in the RB I'm aware of that suggests an interior building hex creates a new ground level for smoke. When smoke drifts to a rooftop location, that doesn't mean it stacks up +2 levels above the roof does it?

Not that I'm aware of. My example of a 1st level hill mass led to my "solution." But that leads me to your next question:

But suppose we are talking about a completely normal 2 level building in which Y7 is an uncomplicated interior building hex -- What smoke counters are placed if a mild breeze blows drifting smoke as we've been discussing?

Eaglety states that this means the smoke wouldn't spread at all. I'm not sure if the RB is clear on this point either, and I'd need a professional firefighter to tell me if this makes "reality sense" or not. I can imagine it either way. Blown against a wall, does smoke rise above the wall and then drift (rooftop to level 3 or 4 above Y7, Z6, AA6...)? Or does it simply scatter about with no appreciable drift in game terms?

...if no one has a more authoritative answer soon, I'll craft a question to Señor Perry. Otherwise, if using the RB only, I think Eaglety's solution is simplest: smoke doesn't drift above original source and won't drift below the previous smoke hex. That is:

X7: Blaze, smoke to Level 2
Y7: Smoke between rooftop and Level 2. 2nd Level steeple lies above the smoke.
Z6: rooftop to level 2 Smoke
AA6: Smoke from level 1 up to level 2

If the building was a normal two-level, no drifting smoke.

P.S. Thanks guys! :highfive:

 

[Pyth]

X7: Blaze, smoke to Level 2
Y7: Smoke between rooftop and Level 2. 2nd Level steeple lies above the smoke.
Z6: rooftop to level 2 Smoke
AA6: Smoke from level 1 up to level 2

If the building was a normal two-level, no drifting smoke.

This is new to me, I guess I didn't process Eagletys post completely... So, the concept is that each drift smoke SOURCES the smoke of the next drift in the chain. Smoke never 'falls' -- so when the level 0 smoke was removed from the chain it never returns. That feels like the solution to the riddle to me. It makes sense... if this is the correct reading of the drift rules the RB does a poor job of conveying it... "but never a Hindrance at levels below the Location of the original SMOKE source." I think the use of 'original' there is problematic.

Also... the whole EXC for rooftops causes me problems...

Suppose the building in the example is a normal level 2 building. Suppose the blaze in X7 originates not on ground level 0, but on level 1. There is a mild breeze as in the orig example. So, Smoke exists at level 1 up to level 3 in X7, and A) does not drift into Y7 at all because it is an interior building hex. or B) If there is an SSR for roofops... the smoke does drift at the rooftop to level 3.

Obviously that's crazy. The point of SSRs for rooftops is to declare them playable rooftops -- but the rooftop location always exists even if it isn't playable and rooftops, playable or not or rubbled have no bearing on the existence of aerial locations above a building. Smoke should be able to drift over interior building locations at all locations from the rooftop up. Unfortunately this EXC just doesn't say that -- [EXC: to/from non-rooftop Locations of an Interior Building hex] ... taken as literally as a rule is supposed to be, that EXC makes aerial locations above interior building hexes invulnerable to drifting smoke. I don't think there's a resolution for this*, it's just a loophole-y flaw that involves a super rare occurrence: drifting aerial smoke over an interior building hex. Another note for the RB ed 3 folks. Are they taking notes!?

I think I recall JRV saying that one of the main global changes from RB ed. 1 to ed. 2 was cleaning up issues around 'location vs. hex,' -- unless I'm mistaken, some of the issues we've been discussing arise from interior building hex/locations distinctions that were missed in the first pass.

* by 'no resolution' -- I mean that there's no way to square the rules text with commonsense gameplay... you have to violate one or the other... I think you violate the RB and say, "there are drift-smokeable aerial locations above an interior building hex" but it's perfectly fair to say, take the RB text as the law, that's what it is for.

 

[Eagle4ty]

I agree the drifting smoke tops out at level 2 but is always placed as if at the base level of the hex. Place the smoke counters as required and realize that the interior building locations at a lower level are not affected directly. Now as to drifting up a hill, I'm less sure but believe that indeed the drifting smoke would be placed at the "base" level of the hex as normal and thus the effects in that hex(es) would be a one (or greater) level above the original smoke counter.

Sure that's an interesting house rule -- just so we agree it's wholly your own. There's nothing in the RB I'm aware of that suggests an interior building hex creates a new ground level for smoke. When smoke drifts to a rooftop location, that doesn't mean it stacks up +2 levels above the roof does it?

....Are zero drift smoke counters placed because the smoke hits an interior hex --Y7 -- and stops? ... or is Y7 skipped over and then two Smoke counters placed -- One in Z6 and one in AA6? ....really hoping for some authoritative guidance on this as I can see justification for either view. I don't think the RB is clear on this point.

Smoke, including drifting smoke [EXC: Smoke Grenades] is always placed at the base level of the hex in question. I think A24.61 is specific enough in this case as it states drifting smoke does not drift "..to/from non-rooftop Locations of an Interior Building hex", thus if you had a level 2 1/2 building in this instance, no drifting smoke would be applicable. To request a further clarification would seem rather redundant to me.

 

[Pyth]

"Smoke, including drifting smoke [EXC: Smoke Grenades] is always placed at the base level of the hex in question."

? Well, now I'm getting so turned around I don't know which way I'm headed. Where's does it say drifting smoke is placed at base level? -- and how can that square with "but never a Hindrance at levels below the Location of the original SMOKE source"

 

[Eagle4ty]

"Smoke, including drifting smoke [EXC: Smoke Grenades] is always placed at the base level of the hex in question."

? Well, now I'm getting so turned around I don't know which way I'm headed. Where's does it say drifting smoke is placed at base level? -- and how can that square with "but never a Hindrance at levels below the Location of the original SMOKE source"

True enough, I did mispeak here as if the original smoke was placed/originated at the base level of the hex, all sudsequent drifting smoke would also originate as the that level (I was thinking of smoke being placed by OBA/ATT fired at target location with a base ground level). Now lets say if one would place smoke on an interior rooftop location, all drifting smoke would emanate from that level as well (ignoring the 1/2 level); for a terrain blaze at level 2 (only), all drifting smoke would start at level 2, etc. Sorry about the confusion.

 

[Binchois]

Well, now I'm getting so turned around...

...Sorry about the confusion.

Sounds like this thread's theme song! Though I think Eaglety's thinking will bear out, I just a sent a fairly comprehensive question to Perry. Could prove to be a useful clarification on several fronts:


How would one work the drifting smoke in the situation below? The building is Ground Level Only with a Level 1 and Level 2 Steeple in Y7. Assume Y7 is an interior building hex. There is a mild breeze.

[SMOKE example.jpg]​

A) Would there still be smoke above the building in hexes Y7 and Z6?

B) Would that smoke exist only between the rooftop and Level 2? (or between the rooftop and Level 3?)

C) I assume there would also be smoke in AA6. But would that fall back to ground level (up to Level 2)? (Or exist only between the same levels as hexes Y7 and Z6?)

D) If the building was, instead, the standard, two-level (with stairwell in Y7), would smoke drift at all?

E) Finally, if X7 was a single story house (on fire!) and the rest of the larger building depicted was instead a one-level hill mass, would drifting smoke always rise two levels above the hex's base? (Including AA6?)