Board 50 - hexes K1 and AA10: Stream or Open Ground?

[Larry]

The pedantic reading that calls into question a stream where 3 hexsides are crossed by the artwork is ... wrong. If hexsides 2, 4, and 6 are crossed, there are three combinations of 2 hexsides that qualify. Are there two hexsides? If the answer is yes, I can count two hexsides, it ends there. But there is a third. Other terrain features would not transform the hex into something else. It is still a stream.

 

[EagleIV]

The pedantic reading that calls into question a stream where 3 hexsides are crossed by the artwork is ... wrong. If hexsides 2, 4, and 6 are crossed, there are three combinations of 2 hexsides that qualify. Are there two hexsides? If the answer is yes, I can count two hexsides, it ends there. But there is a third. Other terrain features would not transform the hex into something else. It is still a stream.

This can't happen using just the geomorphic maps. If someone places overlays such that this happens hopefully they include in the SSR what happens in the hex.

 

[Larry]

Robert gave a comprehensive summary of problems on geomorphic boards. See post 20, supra.

 

[Doug Leslie]

Hopefully some will find the following useful, or at least food for further discussion.

I had a look at the first 80 starter kit style maps. I did not look at any double-wide boards, original hardback boards, deluxe, or TPP boards.

Using the literal interpretation of B20.1, my non-scientific conclusions follow:

Board 13 - I had no problem determining what the stream end hexes are.
Board 22 - K1 is questionable, but I would argue W10 has just enough of the stream art going to a second hexside to declare it a stream hex.
Board 32 - No problem determining stream end hexes.
Board 34 - Ditto.
Board 36 - K10 is questionable, and Q5 has 3 hexsides, putting it in conflict with a pedantic reading of B20.1. Otherwise OK.
Board 40 - No problem.
Board 47 - Yikes. All end hexes are questionable. Also AA6 and G7 have 3 hexsides.
Board 50 - Questionable (as per the OP).
Board 66 - No problem.
Board 72 - No problem. The stream art is really well done on this map, following the dictates of B20.1, and making it very apparent (to me) what was intended as a stream hex and where said stream ended.
Board 76 - Ditto as board 72, but AA8 has 3 hexsides.

YMMV

I would play the board edge examples as stream hexes since they are intended to be geomorphic and join streams on other boards. As for board 47, words fail me! Whoever created that map was probably unaware of the terms of B20.1.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

It is quite normal that some rules details are overlooked by the board artists.

That is a good reason to argue for artwork proofreaders!

 

[Gordon]

To paraphrase Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who proofs the proofreaders?

 

[Tuomo]

That is a good reason to argue for artwork proofreaders!

Oh, there are. I've witnessed the process. Some stuff just gets through.

 

[Stewart]

When a teeny-tiny Outhouse in a hex defines a hex as a building hex.
And when 80% of a waterway stream is on the end of the network...ISN'T a stream hex...sillyness prevails.

 

[lightspeed]

Oh, there are. I've witnessed the process. Some stuff just gets through.

Agreed...I think that no matter how many filters one has, something will get through...
once again, we are victims of mathematics!

I would suggest, as an added layer, that when one play-tests a scenario with streams, one
suggest to the designer that an SSR that defines stream-end hexes be included.

IMHO, the rules are rather clear; the fact that they are considered non-intuitive by some
(including me) tells me a bit more clarity would not go amiss.

ymmv

indy

 

[Robert Fabbro]

To be clear, in my previous post, I was looking at the various end hexes with a strict and neutral reading of B20.1. In all the cases where I indicated a questionable end hex or (facetiously) pointed out a 3-hexside stream, I would personally play those as stream hexes. It just seems too illogical to treat them otherwise.

As has been mentioned, until the Keepers of the Tome have re-written B20.1, both players should discuss any questionable hexes beforehand. In most cases I doubt this would be a problem. Rather, the problem becomes what happens if this becomes a point of contention during play: Alternate interpretations mid-game can make or break a side's strategy.

Should players be blindsided by a mystery end-hex mid-game, I suppose it can be resolved by a friendly "roll of the die" (Although this keeps the game moving, it is always vaguely unsatisfying).

 

[Stewart]

Hi

Hexes 50K1 and 50AA10. Stream or Open Ground?
View attachment 20975

View attachment 20976
I say that as B20.1 is written, they are Open Ground hexes. Opinions please as scenario setup may depend on it

Cheers
Jon

K1 is a stream as it crosses K2.
The other doens't cross anything BUT the center dot is blue and therefore a Water OBSTACLE...likely here to be a river/pond.

 

[von Marwitz]

Hi

Hexes 50K1 and 50AA10. Stream or Open Ground?
View attachment 20975

View attachment 20976
I say that as B20.1 is written, they are Open Ground hexes. Opinions please as scenario setup may depend on it

Cheers
Jon

By the letter of the rules, 50K1 and 50AA10 are Open Ground.

Most people I know play these kind of hexes as if they were a Stream.

When such hexes turn up and anything in the game may depend on it, one is well advised to agree with the opponent on how to treat them.

BTW, I had this same situation in a game involving 50K1 on which my plan for a setup depended: Either going up the hill with tanks or trying to navigate the Stream. If 50K1 was a Stream, I was running short of MP for my plan, if 50K1 was OG, the plan would work (in theory...). We agreed on treating 50K1 as a Stream.

If your game is ongoing before you talked this over, then I reckon you'd have to treat these hexes by the letter of the rules, i.e. as Open Ground.

von Marwitz

 

[Eagle4ty]

By the letter of the rules, 50K1 and 50AA10 are Open Ground.

Most people I know play these kind of hexes as if they were a Stream.

When such hexes turn up and anything in the game may depend on it, one is well advised to agree with the opponent on how to treat them.

BTW, I had this same situation in a game involving 50K1 on which my plan for a setup depended: Either going up the hill with tanks or trying to navigate the Stream. If 50K1 was a Stream, I was running short of MP for my plan, if 50K1 was OG, the plan would work (in theory...). We agreed on treating 50K1 as a Stream.

If your game is ongoing before you talked this over, then I reckon you'd have to treat these hexes by the letter of the rules, i.e. as Open Ground.

von Marwitz

Or make a dr and go with that (adds a bit of FOW to the scenario).

 

[Robin Reeve]

Or make a dr and go with that (adds a bit of FOW to the scenario).

FOW = Fleetingness Of Water, in this case.

 

[Stewart]

I say that as B20.1 is written, they are Open Ground hexes. Opinions please as scenario setup may depend on it

Cheers
Jon

20.1 A stream is a gully containing a small rivulet. A hex such as 13P4 containing
a thin meandering blue line enclosed in a layered white, brown, and
dark green background which extends through two hexsides of the hex is a
stream hex. 13G4 and I6 are not stream hexes because the stream symbol
crosses only one hexside therein. Non-stream remnants such as those in 22J0
and X10 do not block or impede Bypass movement of the J0-K1 hexside.

Where in 20.1 does it say it's an OG hex?

If the center dot is in water, its a