AP Rounds: Forest for the Trees

mOBIUS

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As an example of 'bad-logic', one can read the T34 test above, and apply it to something like a Panzer IV frontal armor which was often protected by tracks. The Panzer IV gets 200 meters of range protection from a 76.2mm AP threat. Why? because the T34 got that range protection. In reality, unless the hit was oblique across the frontal aspect of the panzer IV, the tracks would offer very little protection.
I'm not going out on a limb :) on this as the 76.2mm fired a blunt nosed shell which supposedly did poorly vs vertical armor but better vs sloped armor.

This is another case of the 'Did the Soviets nerf foreign gun ballistics numbers?' While it says the MV was 770m/s what did they set the charge at to simulate 1000m range? In the Yugoslav tests a Pak 40 (MV=790?) penetrated the T-34/85 hull to 1300m. While that was a 50% criteria of penetration the Germans tested a 75mm/L43 (MV=740) which penetrated at T-34/76 hull up to 800m.
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2014/11/german-experience-in-1942_18.html
 
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NUTTERNAME

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I'm not going out on a limb :) on this as the 76.2mm fired a blunt nosed shell which supposedly did poorly vs vertical armor but better vs sloped armor.

This is another case of the 'Did the Soviets nerf foreign gun ballistics numbers?' While it says the MV was 770m/s what did they set the charge at to simulate 1000m range? In the Yugoslav tests a Pak 40 (MV=790?) penetrated the T-34/85 hull to 1300m. While that was a 50% criteria of penetration the Germans tested a 75mm/L43 (MV=740) which penetrated at T-34/76 hull up to 800m.
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2014/11/german-experience-in-1942_18.html
Yes, blunt nosed projectiles would bounce off trees.

OASN, As far as the testing, I need to see the methodology before using the results. One is often forced to guess at how the tests were done. In the case of a PAK40, I would assume the gun is just moved a certain distance to test it against a fixed target vehicle. To move the vehicle is nuts, of course, and modifying the charge (without precision weighing of charge and precision measurement of resulting velocity) not so easily done.

I will return to the Panzer Command thread regarding the great German 75mm mystery. I have a couple of items to add.
 

NUTTERNAME

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The quote of HE detonating when fired into grain is real. It comes from Panzer Gunner by Bruno Friesen.
Yes, I saw that since I own the book, the book is also used in one of the CMRT scenarios I believe. It is interesting in the actual use of HIGH EXPLOSIVE fuses in combat. That is, fuses set on superquick or delay.

But, the sad part(s) is that the confused thread is mixing AP and HE game effects. The most recent poster, that posted screenshots, is clearly calling out the oddness of the AP modeling in that the AP projectiles are detonating on trees, bushes, what have you. The guy quoting Bruno then cuts and pastes the quote about HE.

Other oddness in that thread is that BF is supposedly looking "at this" for three years now. What they are looking at can only be guessed. Steve claims...

There's too many variables. The diameter of the tree would be a huge one, as would the type of wood. Shooting through cedar is very different than shooting through oak. Did the round hit straight on or just catch the outer edge? Stuff like that matters a lot. However, I think it's pretty clear that most large caliber AP rounds should cut through most trees found in Normandy most of the time, possibly with accuracy and velocity disruption.

Remember, trees can be 1 to 2 meters thick, even in Normandy. While certainly not approaching face hardened or rolled steel, it's not like we're talking about an insignificant mass.

Steve
...Oh yeah? Maybe Steve has been in the woods too long and is not only mathematically challenged, he is also dimensionally inept.

Shiver me timbers, already.
 

mOBIUS

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Yes, I saw that since I own the book, the book is also used in one of the CMRT scenarios I believe. It is interesting in the actual use of HIGH EXPLOSIVE fuses in combat. That is, fuses set on superquick or delay.

But, the sad part(s) is that the confused thread is mixing AP and HE game effects. The most recent poster, that posted screenshots, is clearly calling out the oddness of the AP modeling in that the AP projectiles are detonating on trees, bushes, what have you. The guy quoting Bruno then cuts and pastes the quote about HE.

Other oddness in that thread is that BF is supposedly looking "at this" for three years now. What they are looking at can only be guessed. Steve claims...



...Oh yeah? Maybe Steve has been in the woods too long and is not only mathematically challenged, he is also dimensionally inept.

Shiver me timbers, already.
Thems mighty big trees. But rifles can go through 12" trees. see 4:48 on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QgXuhv7-54
 

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NUTTERNAME

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Screw type log splitter. Like a Conical Maul device. Remind anyone of any other pointed spinning thing-a-ma-bob?? (Doesn't Steve fancy himself quite the outdoorsmen type?)[video=youtube;X3Rypb1dcUE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Rypb1dcUE#t=19[/video]
 
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